Topic ID 941
It's oficial then, the signs have gone up in Salisbury Square - the old Rose Optometrists is to become a Caffe Nero. Useful link: http://www.caffenero.com
Reply ID 10152
And I thought from Sloop's post that there were planing hurdles to be crossed.
Reply ID 10155
Indeed - I can't find a planning application for change of use. Should be interesting!
Reply ID 10159
Is there any objection to Caffe Nero coming into the town? I quite like their coffee, it fills an empty shop and it probably won't take business from elsewhere - more likely retain shoppers who might otherwise have wandered home or gone to the car.
Reply ID 10171
Ohh i do like a nice cup of coffee!!!
Reply ID 10184
Yay! It was the one thing missing from the town centre as far as I was concerned. With this and the forthcoming Deli, my town centre existence is on the up! Will be interesting to see how Caffe Nero uses Salisbury Square itself. I assume they'll have tables outside, so they'll have to compete for space with the White Hart during the week and the Market Stalls on Saturday.
Reply ID 10185
Does anyone know when it is opening??
Reply ID 10187
... and subsequently being shut again by EHDC?
Reply ID 10203
I was there today and did not see the signs.....
Reply ID 10209
quote:Me neither!
Originally posted by Ewoowar
I was there today and did not see the signs.....
Reply ID 10213
i did
Reply ID 10214
When I rang the Planning Enforcement office on Wednesday they confirmed they had received no communicationn from Cafe Nero at all. Since then I understand that they have recieved a letter from Cafe Nero asking if any planing permissions are required and if so, what ones. But anyway, building goes ahead, along with applications for employment despite the premises being a listed building and the contractors ripping out all but one of the pane windows and replacing them with sheet glass. People have been thrown into prison for less. And what is now going to stop Costa Coffee for instance doing the same job on Birthdays/Thorntons considering that their application and appeal was turned down three times.
Reply ID 10215
Do the council not have powers to step in immediately in such cases?
Reply ID 10216
A number of people have called the planning department at EHDC and they're well aware of what's happening, as is the Enforcement Officer.
Reply ID 10217
Did you know........... Apparently as a member of the public we/you have no right to know what the council is doing with regards to the Caffe Nero 'development'. If there had been an application to the planning department and we had responded to the yellow application signs that would have appeared on the affected building, our interest would have been registered and we would be entitled to updates on the situation. However there seems to be a major flaw in the system. Hypotheically, someone could deliberately fail to submit an application when they should have done so. Therefore there would be no yellow application sign on the building and members of the public could not register an interest in the application as none would exist. Consequently the public could not then get actively involved in challenging the development as we would have no rights.
Reply ID 10218
However... http://www.eastherts.gov.uk/FreedomOfInformation/index.htm "The Freedom Of Information (FOI) Act 2000 which comes into effect on the 1st January 2005 gives the public a general right of access to all types of 'recorded' information held by 'public authorities' (which includes local authorities). The general right of access is subject to some exemptions and the Act places a number of obligations on local authorities."
Reply ID 10219
quote:From what I'm hearing from a number of sources the right hand hasn't the foggiest what the left hand is doing. Contradictory statements all the time.
A number of people have called the planning department at EHDC and they're well aware of what's happening, as is the Enforcement Officer
Reply ID 10221
quote:Thanks, Steve. Perhaps this should be used to ensure the council tell us what they are doing re. Caffe Nero. I don't have any objections to Caffe Nero opening in Hertford. But I do object to people or companies failing to use the standard processes, for whatever reason. Large organisations that open outlets in town centres know damn well that you don't contact the planning departments to ask what you should be doing after your builders have gutted the premises and replaced windows. They also know that before you sign the lease you check if you are permitted to use the premises for what you have intended. It's not complicated, scary stuff!
Originally posted by Steve
However... http://www.eastherts.gov.uk/FreedomOfInformation/index.htm "The Freedom Of Information (FOI) Act 2000 which comes into effect on the 1st January 2005 gives the public a general right of access to all types of 'recorded' information held by 'public authorities' (which includes local authorities). The general right of access is subject to some exemptions and the Act places a number of obligations on local authorities."
Reply ID 10222
quote:Apparently the Conversation Officer has got involved...........or should that be Conservation?
Originally posted by sloopjohnbquote:From what I'm hearing from a number of sources the right hand hasn't the foggiest what the left hand is doing. Contradictory statements all the time.
A number of people have called the planning department at EHDC and they're well aware of what's happening, as is the Enforcement Officer
Reply ID 10229
Have just sent an enquiry , will I get a reply???
Reply ID 10430
[?] Have you heard anything yet?
Reply ID 10437
quote:Thank you for your e-mail, we are now in receipt of a application for listed building consent and are at present determining if planning permission is required for the change of use. I will pass on your details to the relevant case officer so that you will be consulted on the application.
Originally posted by alison
[?] Have you heard anything yet?
Reply ID 10439
By the time that Planning have considered whether they do or do not have to apply for appropriate permission they will be open and made enogh money to pay the fine. I hear that perhaps planning permission is not required for this building. Perhaps my copy of Listed Buildings in Hertford is terribly out of date. Perhaps this business is not classed as A3 at all; and Salisbury Square is not included in the Local Plan and busineeses in this part of town can re-classify at will. Mercury have latest but who knows what will happen between now and Friday!! Cafe Nero might have been closed down.
Reply ID 10455
Berlimey! I was passing early this evening and saw the place looks ready to open. That was quick! I think the signage does not look as out of place as I was expecting. How long before they want to put tables outside?
Reply ID 10457
And all this without planning permission!! A lot of people unhappy about this complete disregard for procedure. And a lot of people worried that tables and chairs, without permission will also shortly appear. They have applied for retrospective permission for listed building consent but these premises are strictly within the red lined Local Plan which seeks to restrict premises being reclassified from prime A1 retail to A3 usage. By any measure this place is A1/A3 usage. Not to mention permission for an illuminated hanging sign. It is not that it is unsympathetic, not that it is ugly (sorry Jade), not that it is not wanted - just that they have gone ahead and done what they wanted without any proper legal formalities. But once trading who is going to close them down for non-compliance? There are so many precedents for this in Hitchin, Loughton and Epping for starters. And are their competitors going to let it stop there. I don't think so. And Caffe Nero have shown the way it can be done. Welcome to the cafe society Hertford.
Reply ID 10459
I am not against Caffe Nero but I am with the venerable Sloop. I hate the attitude that doesn't give a sh*t about the law, people, property. There are no two ways about this. Caffe Nero have opened enough cafes to know that there are basic steps that have to be followed. Simple things such as checking the classification of the premises. They would have known this when they signed the lease. But no, "F**k the people of Hertford and their petty council. SHOW ME YOUR MONEY!" I hate it. I hate the attitude. On their own website (see: http://www.caffenero.com/CompanyInfo.asp?Section=Philosophy) they state "Our intention is also to be part of and integrate into the local environment and culture". Well, abiding by the same rules and laws as the locals and paying credence to the local governing organisations is one of them so you've just wazzed that one up. These people are responsible....... http://www.caffenero.com/CompanyInfo.asp?Section=Philosophy)
Reply ID 10460
Oh yeah........... and for those who think I've gone over the top on this one......... I do realise this is a cafe they have opened and not a nuclear reprocessing plant.
Reply ID 10461
And while I'm at it. Check out these three cacklers. http://www.caffenero.com/ Imagine the scene. A chilly February Saturday morning in Hertford. Claydons is starting to get busy. The market is alive and beginning to buzz around the fountain. The fella selling his eggs and Pendragon Garden Designs is standing patiently by his stall............. and (check that picture again) these heavy coated feline mafiosi are roaring with enjoyment over their latte. It's like something out of Little Britain. ======> Very smart. Just noticed they have random pictures on that page. Click refresh a few times till you get the picture.
Reply ID 10466
If you're not happy with the way this "new outlet" has been handled, try sending an email to [email protected]. The more emails they receive the more they'll take notice. I'd echo John's comments about them being welcome, so long as they respect the town and abide by planning laws.
Reply ID 10469
quote:I suspect it is also the case that Caffe Nero have opened enough cafes to know what they can get away with!
Originally posted by Ewoowar
Caffe Nero have opened enough cafes to know that there are basic steps that have to be followed.
Reply ID 10474
I suspect it is also the case that Caffe Nero have opened enough cafes to know what they can get away with! [/quote] V true . Incidently has anyone checked that this IS Caffe Nero & not just a franchise (don't know how they tend to operate but as an example over half of Macdonalds in the UK are franchised). They still would have some responsibility sure, but could be that this is an independent operator?? Any thoughts John?
Reply ID 10475
quote:I was standing outside premises yesterday talking to Mercury on the mobile when manageress came out to welcome a job applicant. If they heard what I was saying I'm very definetely 'persona non gratis'. But I will go and introduce myself once opened. Which by the way, is scheduled for Sunday.
They still would have some responsibility sure, but could be that this is an independent operator?? Any thoughts John?
Reply ID 10478
quote:Your thoughts about Caffe Nero mirror, just about exactly, mine about the scrotes who beat up Mr Tigger last week. I'm beginning to think that if we don't stand up to Caffe Nero it's the equivalent to letting the little scrotes get away with beating us up on the train.
Originally posted by Ewoowar
I hate the attitude that doesn't give a sh*t about the law, people, property. There are no two ways about this.Caffe Nero have opened enough cafes to know that there are basic steps that have to be followed. Simple things such as checking the classification of the premises. They would have known this when they signed the lease. But no, "F**k the people of Hertford and their petty council. SHOW ME YOUR MONEY!" I hate it. I hate the attitude. "Our intention is also to be part of and integrate into the local environment and culture". Well, abiding by the same rules and laws as the locals and paying credence to the local governing organisations is one of them so you've just wazzed that one up
Reply ID 10479
Personally, as long as they do not recreate the isore along North Road opposite Walters, I will enjoy having a coffee in there from time to time.
Reply ID 10483
quote:The difference is that the Costa Del Sol apartments in North Road had planning permission. Quite how they achieved that is anyones guess. But they did have permission none the less. And at a risk of going off topic...........has anyone noticed that the apartments have been painted the same colour as the more traditional property next door. Perhaps they builders were trying to blend it in!
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
Personally, as long as they do not recreate the isore along North Road opposite Walters, I will enjoy having a coffee in there from time to time.
Reply ID 10484
Anybody noticed how the exterior paint was put on so thinly that grey is already showing through from underneath?
Reply ID 10485
Didn't Birthdays try to change their use into a Costa Coffee shop? Surely it is double standards if Caffe Nero get to open but Costa Don't - although at least we will get a coffee shop out of it
Reply ID 10487
Personally cant wait for it to open. I will be there on Sunday, anyone care to join me??
Reply ID 10488
Yes I shall be there Gill, looking forward to it.
Reply ID 10495
quote:Oh my. It's just a cafe. They sell coffee.
Originally posted by GillP
Personally cant wait for it to open. I will be there on Sunday, anyone care to join me??
Reply ID 10496
To summarise some opinions in town. What is stopping Costa Coffee from opening. Or Starbucks. Absolutely nothing. But at least Costa Coffee applied for planning permission and were turned down and appealed .. and lost .. and appealed ... and lost. Why were Cafe Pasta refused permission for an illuminated sign and yet Caffe (remember Sloop - 2 f's) Nero have put one up. And today the 'piece de resistance' - blinds. Remember this is a listed building. No one is saying it is a bad thing for Hertford. Well some are! What we are saying is do it right - apply for the proper permissions. Can you imagine what your neighbour might say if you ran a MOT station from your living room and put up steel shutters at night and lit a red light above the door!
Reply ID 10497
quote:Yes. It's just another fad from the States - trotting around with your designer coffee looking oh-so-Cosmopolitan. I guess Evian bottles are "out" now. What's wrong with the coffee from Cafe Rouge, or The Glasshouse, which is much more environmentally friendly as it comes in - Gasp - reusable cups! Oh, silly me. It doesn't come with trendy packaging. It should be called Caffe Nerd, for all the suckers that fall for the marketing. The pretentious "ff" sums it up.
Originally posted by Ewoowar Oh my. It's just a cafe. They sell coffee.
Reply ID 10505
quote:Hmmmmm............pretentious ff'ers?
Originally posted by nora battyquote:Yes. It's just another fad from the States - trotting around with your designer coffee looking oh-so-Cosmopolitan. I guess Evian bottles are "out" now. What's wrong with the coffee from Cafe Rouge, or The Glasshouse, which is much more environmentally friendly as it comes in - Gasp - reusable cups! Oh, silly me. It doesn't come with trendy packaging. It should be called Caffe Nerd, for all the suckers that fall for the marketing. The pretentious "ff" sums it up.
Originally posted by Ewoowar Oh my. It's just a cafe. They sell coffee.
Reply ID 10512
So in 10 months time when the sun is shining, all the people that have been moaning will not relish the idea of a croissant and latte out side on a Sunday morning with the newspapers. OK they have broken the planning rules, but even if they had been straight down the line there would have been windgers, just like they were when there was talk of Costa coffee opening. As far as I can see, its another improvement to Hertford, yeah sure Cafe Uno and The Glasshouse sell coffee, but they are jack off all, masters of none (Especially Cafe uno)From what I hear there are now plenty of tourists coming to Hertford these days and what with the opening of the new hotel, a coffee shop should be welcomed. As for a fad from the states Coffee shops have been around for at least 10 years in the city, so why should they now not spread to the suburbs. Or are we not yet ready? On the other hand maybe we should all be happy with the empty units in town, that would be a real pull for tourists.
Reply ID 10514
quote:'Jack off all'?!?!?!?!?! Priceless!
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
So in 10 months time when the sun is shining, all the people that have been moaning will not relish the idea of a croissant and latte out side on a Sunday morning with the newspapers. OK they have broken the planning rules, but even if they had been straight down the line there would have been windgers, just like they were when there was talk of Costa coffee opening. As far as I can see, its another improvement to Hertford, yeah sure Cafe Uno and The Glasshouse sell coffee, but they are jack off all, masters of none (Especially Cafe uno)From what I hear there are now plenty of tourists coming to Hertford these days and what with the opening of the new hotel, a coffee shop should be welcomed. As for a fad from the states Coffee shops have been around for at least 10 years in the city, so why should they now not spread to the suburbs. Or are we not yet ready? On the other hand maybe we should all be happy with the empty units in town, that would be a real pull for tourists.
Reply ID 10515
Victor. I assume you live in a house. I assume you have next door neighbours, who live in a house. It is a house. For residential use. If new neighbours moved in and turned it into a kebab shop that opened all night without applying to the relevent authorities I hazard a guess that you would not be best pleased. Same principal. If Caffe Nerd had applied for planning permission and followed the correct processes they may well have been successful and this thread would be full of posts welcoming them to the town. As it is they appear to have ignored the need to follow the correct processes. The rules and laws governing planning are there to protect the town. There's nothing wrong with Caffe Nero's product, as far as I know. And they may be a great addition to the town. But if they get away with flouting planning regulations then what is to stop the same thing happening time after time? By the way............coffee shops have actually been in Hertford for over 150 years. I think the property that is now The Stonehouse used to be one.
Reply ID 10517
I'm not getting at coffee shops, and I agree that it is far better to have a business in town than an empty unit. I'd rather it was coffee shop than another wine bar. My point is this: Because some American tv sitcom makes designer coffee trendy, people get whipped up into a frenzy of excitement over something that has been around for hundreds of years. It's what you call "marketing".
Reply ID 10519
Yes I live in a House in a residential area. I was under the assumption that Cafe Nero is located in town surrounded by? shops. For your information, I used to live in a flat opposite what was to become Baroosh, when it did the noise became unbearable. Guess what, I moved. Easy as that, no complaining. From what I can gather your argument re living next to somewhere that new owners turn into a Kebab house holds no substance. Cafe Nero is in town with from what I can gather no residential houses next to it. The closest flats are above Gravesons and I would imagine they would relish the idea of somewhere to go for coffee. If they do not and they are worried about new shops/bar/eateries opening up near them, then perhaps they should have thought about that before buying in town. Yes planning rules are made to be followed, but you are very nieve if you think they are always adhered to. Brown envelopes spring to mind. An Ewoowar, I have just had a quick look at the old Costa thread and it seems you are pro coffee houses, so I wont challenge you on that again.!![8D]
Reply ID 10520
By using the hypothetical example of your house and a neighbour I was highlighting the principal, not basing the whole objection to Caffe Nero on being close to residences. The principal remains. When V&S wanted to open a scaffolding yard they applied for planning permission. When the Saab garage wanted to open an MOT bay they applied for planning permission. I am confident that when McMullens wanted to open Baroosh they applied for the required planning permission. This gave you, as a local resident, and everybody else the opportunity to unfluence the outcome of their application. You could have objected. I'm not saying you would have been successful but the opportunity was there because McMullens had followed the correct processes. By ignoring the processes it means that nobody gets an opportunity to voice their opinion.
Reply ID 10523
quote:So, Baroosh drove you out of your home because of the noise and your attitude is "easy, no complaining". That's OK with you is it? You think everyone should adopt a similar casual attitude do you?
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
I used to live in a flat opposite what was to become Baroosh, when it did the noise became unbearable. Guess what, I moved. Easy as that, no complaining.
Reply ID 10527
If you live in the center of town you should expect that there should be noise, if you want peace and quite, move to a pure residential area or the country (and then you get the farmers!). We all have that choice. The Sunbed shop below didnt help either.
Reply ID 10533
From what I have gathered from this and other threads, rents in Hertford town centre are so high that only large chains can afford them. The empty windows are testament to this. So we are in a pact with the devil...put up with the chains that can and will flout the planning laws and get away with it or have empty shops. Not much of a choice but I know which one I prefer. If a private individual did this they would be instructed to pull down any new building etc. When was the last time a national chain was told to do this in Herts. My bet would be never. My objection to Costa Coffee was that it is rubbish (we have one in our office).
Reply ID 10550
I am not a fond lover of the coffee bars, they serve a purpose, but there are so many in London where I sometimes work, its novelty has gone. However, they have a nice way of offering a venue of no alcohol and calming down the area and offering pleasant respite. It might make the White Hart area calmer... but then again 24 hr drinking coming up... that will steam up my Skinny Latte !!!
Reply ID 10582
I've always wanted to know but never dared ask...what is a "skinny" latte?
Reply ID 10583
quote:I think it's made with skimmed or semi-skimmd milk. I have a quiet chuckle to myself in the queue for a tea at work. Yo never get a simple request from the coffee drinkers. Skinny latte, wet americano, cinnamon cappuccino...............
Originally posted by 2929paul
I've always wanted to know but never dared ask...what is a "skinny" latte?
Reply ID 10584
There's an article about this in the Mercury..... http://www.herts-essex-news.co.uk/news/mercury/hertfordshire_mercury/2005/09/23/shops%20done%20lets%20get%20planning%20permission.lpf Apparently the chap who identified the site for Caffe Nero stated, "it's not uncommon for people opening a store to do some work and accept there's an element of risk from the council saying 'We don't like that'". Well, unfortunately it's not uncommon for lots of things to happen that are not meant to. It doesn't make them right though.
Reply ID 10586
Posted by Nora Batty I'm not getting at coffee shops, and I agree that it is far better to have a business in town than an empty unit. I'd rather it was coffee shop than another wine bar. Do we have a wine bar? Where is it?
Reply ID 10590
Well. Good or Bad, it's open now and getting quite a bit of custom even this early on a sunday. Could be the novelty, but I do believe this brings a welcome enhancement to the town centre. It's provides a 'non-pub' meeting place, a place to just sit and watch the world go by. I wish it good luck and I'm sure I'll become a regular.
Reply ID 10591
quote:It's called 'choice' [;)] You explore the variants and go with what you like. I'm a '3/4 Tall Skinny Americano Extra Shot' man myself. Coffee Lingo Lexicon here: http://www.callihan.com/seattle/coffee.htm
Originally posted by Ewoowar
[quote][i] I have a quiet chuckle to myself in the queue for a tea at work. Yo never get a simple request from the coffee drinkers. Skinny latte, wet americano, cinnamon cappuccino...............
Reply ID 10592
In a moment of Irony, I just got back from my first sampling of the Espresso Macchiato in Caffe Nero, only to open my mail and find a letter from EHC infoming me of the 'Proposed shopfitting, comprising finishes, bar, lighting, wc's and storage to form "Caffe Nero"' Luckily I have until Oct 13th to comment on this 'future development' [:D]
Reply ID 10596
Funnily enough elkiev I noticed the same thing on my way to the Sunday morning purgatory thay call Tesco. But there was lack of bodies in Barneys opposite. Sundays in Hertford are notoriously quiet. Did you notice at all if the trade in Caffe Nero had affected the numbers in say Baroosh or Cafe Uno. By itself I don't think Caffe Nero is going to drag the tourists kicking and screaming into Hertford.
Reply ID 10597
Looks like I am going to have to prepare a suitable response to their planning application. But as they did exactly the same thing in Hitchin; and were given the opportunity by the Council to apply for retrospective permission otherwise the Council may have had to consider enforcement - I don't hold out much hope for any opposition. Similar comments to mine and many others here were expresso'd by Hitchin Forum members; to the effect that companies as Caffe Nero and Subway just went ahead and did it, despite the overwhelming majority of others abiding by the rules. So, one rule for you - one for us.[:p]
Reply ID 10598
In terms of the change of use issue (which was one of the original concerns), it looks like they found the loophole and are operating as a 'Retail' outlet on the basis that they sell T-Shirts, Mugs and other 'Caffe Nero' items. If the loopholes are there, why wouldn't a company exploit them to their advantage? It's enabled them to get in and start operating. Oh, and to answer your questions John on the affect on other businesses, both Caffe Uno and Baroosh had a resonable ammount of custom when I went past this morning.
Reply ID 10599
One could never throw accusations of naivete at these people. But on to more important matters. I am marching steadfastly towards the magic 400 posts and will reward myself this afternon with the odd half.
Reply ID 10602
Well we enjoyed a nice Latte in there this morning. Personally i tihnk it is a great addition to Salsibury Square.
Reply ID 10603
I think it looks good on the square and may be a great addition to the town. I also think they are devious and don't care one bit about the town. If they did they would have follwed the correct processes, as everybody else has to. Rightly, they are a business and are in it for the money so why should I expect anything else. The planning regulations are there to protect the town. Perhaps we are lucky by having them pi**ed on by a company that has a good product and will add to the town. However, as they have now set a precedent, what is to stop any other company or individual doing the same.
Reply ID 10604
Skinny Latte....isn't that one of those drinks mafe up of milk, hot water but no discernible trace of any coffee?
Reply ID 10606
Skinny latte...........isn't that a character from a Quentin Tarantino film. In fact, going through the coffee lexicon I'd suggest most of the names would be characters from either Quentin Tarantino or Guy Ritchie films.
Reply ID 10607
But is it any good in there and how do prices compare with Baroosh et al ?
Reply ID 10620
In view of the fact that they have not applied to change the use of the premises, it is perhaps fitting that this thread is under 'Shopping' and not 'Leisure and Entertainment'.
Reply ID 10621
There is a reference to the Caffe Nero planning debacle in Hitchin on page 2 of the following trade publication: http://www.coffee-house.org.uk/coffeehousejune2004.pdf It's also worth looking at the picture of the Costa in Stratford Upon Avon.............perhap we were very lucky!
Reply ID 10829
Having now had the opportunity to view the "refurbished" building, I can't help but think that this is the beginning of the end for the quirkyness and character of the town. If you stand back and look at the parade as a whole, Cafe Nero is too clean crisp and angular, which is what makes Hertford so different. Even the newly refurbished Toni & Guy, has retained many of the original Ilotts features, albeit in a different colour. Coffee may be popular, but the fabric and history of the building is even more important, and if this goes unchecked, then it only sets a dangerous precident for the other multi-nationals to run rough shot over planning regulations that are there for the good of everyone.
Reply ID 10830
You have three weeks to make your views known to the planning authority.
Reply ID 10831
The yellow sign is finally on the wall. Are we allowed to post the details here? And can Admin provide a few photos for those who are yet to have the opportunity to see the building?
Reply ID 10832
quote:Looking back at photos I've taken when Rose's Opticians was in place, it was a fairly unremarkable building as it was. I doubt if many people gave it a second glance. At least now the building is getting much more use and notice. I'm all for maintaining the historical ambience of Hertford (it one of the reason I love the place so much) but it seems to me that Hertford has Historical Ambience in spades, and the minor alteration of one unremarkable building isn't going to endanger that. As it says on the coat of arms 'Pride in our Past, Faith in our Future', This town needs to move with the times to keep alive, as well as maintaining a firm grasp on its history. One shouldn't negate the other.
Originally posted by flowerbar
Having now had the opportunity to view the "refurbished" building, I can't help but think that this is the beginning of the end for the quirkyness and character of the town. If you stand back and look at the parade as a whole, Cafe Nero is too clean crisp and angular, which is what makes Hertford so different. Even the newly refurbished Toni & Guy, has retained many of the original Ilotts features, albeit in a different colour. Coffee may be popular, but the fabric and history of the building is even more important, and if this goes unchecked, then it only sets a dangerous precident for the other multi-nationals to run rough shot over planning regulations that are there for the good of everyone.
Reply ID 10833
Pictures of Caffe Nero here... http://www.hertford.net/pictures/caffenero.asp For what it's worth, I had a close look at the old windows before they were removed. They were uPVC plastic!
Reply ID 10834
Thanks, Steve. I'm struggling on this one. I think it looks not just okay, but very fitting. But that's just looks. I have not been inside yet. I was in Salisbury Square the weekend before last. The fountain was running, the sun shone, and people were stopping by at the towns new cafe. It all looked (massive pause here) cosmopolitan (spits!). I have to say the damn place fits in.
Reply ID 10835
Its a dam site better looking than The Bakers Oven across the road and 100 time better than a gaudy painted Zeros. A definite improvement in my mind. Next topic please!
Reply ID 10837
I agree that Cafe Nero looks a lot better than what was there before, and it is good to have a coffee bar.... however,..... the real issue here is that they are applying for retrospective planning permission. Most of us like Cafe Nero, but what if a chain used the same tactics, and people were not in favour and it was an eyesore. Obviously there would be protests, but would this company get in by the backdoor. Whatever we might think of the planning process, it is responsible for keeping the unique nature of Hertford town centre.
Reply ID 10838
quote:For what it's worth (nothing), I agree. I like the coffee, I like the way it's been done, I like what they bring to Hertford, it's a lot better that some of the other sites in the town BUT...they did it without permission. They have ridden roughshod over the local regulations and just set themselves up as quickly as possible to start trading profitably. Compare this with our friends farrow and farrow and what they seem to have gone through, simply by following all the correct procedures. The big boys have ignored the rules to their benefit, got away with it and shown us another example of the way our society works. If a group of travellers set up a site on the outskirts of town and apply for retrospective planning permission, the principle is exactly the same but the protests would be heard for miles around.
Originally posted by wizkid
I agree that Cafe Nero looks a lot better than what was there before, and it is good to have a coffee bar.... however,..... the real issue here is that they are applying for retrospective planning permission. Most of us like Cafe Nero, but what if a chain used the same tactics, and people were not in favour and it was an eyesore. Obviously there would be protests, but would this company get in by the backdoor. Whatever we might think of the planning process, it is responsible for keeping the unique nature of Hertford town centre.
Reply ID 10845
quote:I think that you may find that groups of travellers have historically caused a lot more mess and damage than a company that has converted a shop into a coffee bar. I cant believe this topic is still going on! Sorry I should have said "I don't believe it"
If a group of travellers set up a site on the outskirts of town and apply for retrospective planning permission, the principle is exactly the same but the protests would be heard for miles around.
Reply ID 10846
quote:Derrrr............you keep adding to it.
I cant believe this topic is still going on! Sorry I should have said "I don't believe it"
Reply ID 10856
I am sure that "retrospective planning permission" is a perfectly ligitimate practice. It is designed to protect the person that builds something and doesn't realise that he needed planning permission - he can then apply retrospectively and if that is all OK there is no problem. The only risk is that planning permission is not granted and therefore you have to undo what you have done.
Reply ID 10858
quote:I'm sure it's legitimate but I am also sure that it is there fore the very reason you state, "to protect the person that builds something and doesn't realise that he needed planning permission". Caffe Nero own are not a franchise, they own every cafe opened with their name. They are also the 20th fastest growing company in Europe. Opening as many cafes as they do I think it is fair to assume they know they should ask some fairly basic questions regarding the properties they lease. I think Caffe Nero have a good product and the building fits into the environment well. So I don't expect there to be any problems with their application. However they have set a bad precedent. The next chain that comes along and ignores the regulations may not be as sensitive to the building and the town.
Originally posted by jez_p
I am sure that "retrospective planning permission" is a perfectly ligitimate practice. It is designed to protect the person that builds something and doesn't realise that he needed planning permission - he can then apply retrospectively and if that is all OK there is no problem. The only risk is that planning permission is not granted and therefore you have to undo what you have done.
Reply ID 10859
quote:Where is the Bakers Oven??? Do you men Greggs the Bakers?? Totally different company. Rooster (not Dobbin)
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
Its a dam site better looking than The Bakers Oven across the road and 100 time better than a gaudy painted Zeros. A definite improvement in my mind. Next topic please!
Reply ID 10860
Yeah that will be the one, scruffy looking place that I would never consider buying anything from. Greggs, Bakers Oven. Whatever!
Reply ID 10881
quote:From a business point of view it makes sense to open first get permission later. Getting planning permission can take weeks and if you have bought premeses you might as well be making money sooner rather than later. (The same could apply to a small business or franchise) the worst case scenario for Caffe Nero is that they have to sell the shop - most of the furniture could probably be moved to their next shop. The rules still apply, permission could still be refused, but I hope not. In the case of Costa the shop was already open and trading so the planning application was put in first as it was the most economical option in that particular case.
Originally posted by Ewoowar
I think Caffe Nero have a good product and the building fits into the environment well. So I don't expect there to be any problems with their application.
Reply ID 11760
So what was the outcome? The council told me I was not entitled to be told as I had not registered an objection.
Reply ID 11761
I don't think the 3 week consultation period has finished yet. It then has to be decided by an officer or the Planning Committee.
Reply ID 11768
Opposition to planning permission for listed building consent is now closed - two weeks ago, but you can still object to change of use to A3 until this Friday 4 November.
Reply ID 11769
quote:But why would you want to object, when it smartens up the square??
Originally posted by sloopjohnb
Opposition to planning permission for listed building consent is now closed - two weeks ago, but you can still object to change of use to A3 until this Friday 4 November.
Reply ID 11777
quote:I have no problems with the design at all. The issue at stake is that building work on a listed building and change of use went ahead without prior planning permission or approval and only one of five applications stuck to the building is applied for retrospectively. The issue of listed building consent is perhaps not so serious as there were no massive structural alterations. But ... if the East Herts Council Local Plan adopted in 1999 says that there should be no change of use from A1 to A3 and that the policy was introduced to protect the shopping environment of market towns then I do think that Caffe Nero should be obliged to follow the rules. All over town businesses comply with the rules - there are too many examples to list and some of them contribute to this forum and it is to their credit that they have done. That is why so many town centre traders are upset. They comply, Caffe Nero don't. Spend a few hours tracking Caffe Nero around the country's planning departments and you will find a history of complete disregard for authority. They may serve excellent coffee, do a tasteful ciabatta tuna delight; provide comfortable seating for tired and emotional executives and distraught mothers and babies and be universally acclaimed as a 'good thing' but they have opened a coffee shop without planning permission. If overnight and without forewarning you, your next door neighbour smashed down his front wall and began a panel beating and repainting service for distressed automobiles would you object; or would you say, that's fine, he's providing a service. I'll let him carry on. Unless of course you happen to live next door to a garage already.
But why would you want to object, when it smartens up the square??
Reply ID 11778
I agree. You cannot have all other retailers or potential retailers keeping to the planning laws and then blatantly let Cafe Nero off the hook, even if it does look nice! The rules are there to protect us as much as anything and yes they can be archaic at times, but if you let one retailer get away with it, it will encourage others.. don't say you haven't been warned!!!
Reply ID 11783
Yesterdays news tomorrows chip papers. Its happend. Get used to it. If it was an isore, it woud be different. I would imagine the building work was surveyed, so I guess that there will be no structural damage. I really dont think that a garage opening up in a private close is anything like a coffee shop opening up in a busy town center opposite a greasy spoon and a bakers. Maybe a few more people should flaunt the rules in Hertford, then maybe we would ahve a few more decent looking establishments. I take it you stick to all the speed limits as well do you?[8D]
Reply ID 11789
quote:It's nothing to do with context. It's the principle. If the processes and regulations that are in place are ignored then the same principle applies regardless of whether it is a town centre cafe or a residential road. What's to stop the town turning into a mass of cheque converters, pawn shops, pound shops, kebab shops, porn outlets? Well it's the very same regulations you are happy to see ignored. They cannot be ignored just because Cafe Nero make a nice coffee and have comfy chairs. And by the way.............I sometimes drive too fast........but I accept that if I am caught doing so I will be punished. If I repeat the behaviour enough times I will lose my license.
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
I really dont think that a garage opening up in a private close is anything like a coffee shop opening up in a busy town center opposite a greasy spoon and a bakers. I take it you stick to all the speed limits as well do you?
Reply ID 11791
so is the bottom line.. we all like it but we want to see it shut down?
Reply ID 11792
quote:I have to agree with you on this, but did Cafe Nero not get permission to open as a coffee shop first and was it only the planning permission rules they have flouted? Surely the town planners would not allow the types of shops you have mentioned?
What's to stop the town turning into a mass of cheque converters, pawn shops, pound shops, kebab shops, porn outlets? Well it's the very same regulations you are happy to see ignored. They cannot be ignored just because Cafe Nero make a nice coffee and have comfy chairs.
Reply ID 11796
quote:No, they didn't
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
did Cafe Nero not get permission to open as a coffee shop first
Reply ID 11798
At the heart of all this Victor is that there is not really a Town Plan. Planning officers can only approve or otherwise each application as it is submitted to them. The heart of Hertford from say Ladbrokes down to Halfords including Bircherley Green is prime A1 retail (apart from existing premises) and coloured red. The rest of the town is coloured blue so many of the types of shop mentioned would get permission provided everything else was equal. no one says there are x number of ladies hairdressers, we don't want any more. There is a very real chance that Hertford could end up with a multitude of bars, alcoholic and nail, coffee shops and boutiques. Is that the kind of town we want? I don't know and in the absence of any joint agency effort to drive a plan forward it could happen. And before anyonje asks something on my 'to do' list. Lengthening every passing day. As for my favourite coffee shop (and I have been in to introduce myself etc etc.) they moved in the day after Rose moved out and began work. I believe they did have some brief consulation with the Conservation Officer but the work went on regardless of what might have been said or advised. They had no planning permission to do anything, certainly not open a coffee shop, apart from I suppose approval from the landlord to buy the lease.
Reply ID 11801
As long as Hertford doesnt go the way Hampstead did, where every new premesis opening was either a coffee shop or an estate agents, I'm happy with teh current state of teh town. If people are stupid enough to think that a town the size of Hertford warrants 3+ nail bars, then they're just asking for bankruptcy, especially since one has had loads of free publicity courtesy of it's owner being a Z-list celeb. I must admit I wouldn't ever frequent Cafe Nero, but I do think it's the best out of the high-street coffee shops and I also think it really has smartened the square up and at least meant that a trip to Hertford on a Sunday doesn't mean the only shops open are Monsoon and Thorntons.
Reply ID 11806
At the risk of wandering off-topic, Puccinos are very good. The only one I've actually visited is in St.Albans but the quality, decor and atmos were v.good. http://www.puccinos.com/
Reply ID 11809
quote:I don't want to see it shut down. I don't know enough about what might have been done that may have damaged the building when they flouted the planning (listed status, etc). But something must be done to deliver a clear message that attempts to ignore the regulations will be met with an impactful response. It must be seen to have a financial impact or it will not deter others.
Originally posted by MATTHEW
so is the bottom line.. we all like it but we want to see it shut down?
Reply ID 11812
Sorry Ewoowar, but if they had damaged the building, it would have never past the structural survey and therefore would not have got is insurance and would not have been allowed to open.
Reply ID 11815
I don't think Mr.E mentioned STRUCTURAL damage specifically. Who's to say they had a structural survey after the work? Come to that, who's to say they're insured? They've ignored one set of regulations, so what else might they have ignored in the rush to open?
Reply ID 11816
Oh come on Steve, do you really think they would open up to the public with out public liability insurance. Surely a man of your intelligence would not belive that?
Reply ID 11820
My point is that they'll flout regulations where they can get away with it. They're doing this up and down the country. This from http://www.coffee-house.org.uk: "The latest in planning battles sees a notable victory for Caffe Nero. The Edinburgh press has reported that the local city council, which began an action to close the Nero branch for allegedly flouting planning laws, has now been over-ruled by the Scottish executive. The council reportedly did not take the decision gracefully, complaining that the Executive had supported Caffe Nero’s "disregard" for Edinburgh’s planning laws.
Reply ID 11823
I understand exactly what your point is, but in this instance our opinions differ. If it does not cause any offence to the eye is a benifit to the town and is safe. So, am I bovered? It sounds like they will eventually get the knuckles wrapped and will end up having to go through the correct channels.
Reply ID 11838
quote:Bengeo rat run............am I bovered? Parking in Millmead Way........am I bovered? I'm all right, Jack.
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
I understand exactly what your point is, but in this instance our opinions differ. If it does not cause any offence to the eye is a benifit to the town and is safe. So, am I bovered?
Reply ID 11841
quote:Apologies.......I am not replying on Steve's behalf........ I would add.......do you really think a national chain would fail to follow planning regulations, ignore listed building status and change the use of the premises without the neccessary permission being granted before opening?
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
Oh come on Steve, do you really think they would open up to the public with out public liability insurance. Surely a man of your intelligence would not belive that?
Reply ID 11844
I think the punishment for breaking the planning rules should be having to fund a new fountain in the square.[;)]
Reply ID 11845
Have to agree with the principle that Caffe Nero are getting away with murder where farrow and farrow are having to hang about for ever because they are playing it by the rules. Victor, I'm sure you'll be spending a fortune in fandf when it opens, to make up for lost time but CN has flouted the rules and your I'm All Right Jack attitude would very soon turn into a NIMBY attitude if, as suggested, someone opened up a 24 hour sheet metal workers next door to you without planning permission. Wouldn't bother those who lived the other side of town and needed use of a 24 hour sheet metal worker, though. But I do agree that it looks good and enhances the town. Just that they should be taught a lesson. By the way, on a technical point, Public Liability insurance is not a statutory requirement and some larger companies even self insure it. The cover's existence or otherwise does not have any relation to the state of the premises from which the company is operating.
Reply ID 11852
quote:nice one[:D]
Originally posted by annia
I think the punishment for breaking the planning rules should be having to fund a new fountain in the square.[;)]
Reply ID 11861
quote:If Cafe Neros directly affects anyones day to day living such as the rat run and Millmead way parking, especially yours Ewo, I will retract my comment. Not really the same thing though are they.
Originally posted by Ewoowarquote:Bengeo rat run............am I bovered? Parking in Millmead Way........am I bovered? I'm all right, Jack.
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
I understand exactly what your point is, but in this instance our opinions differ. If it does not cause any offence to the eye is a benifit to the town and is safe. So, am I bovered?
Reply ID 11863
I'm not bovered whether or not you retract your comment. The point about Caffe Nero is that what they are doing effects other people and can have a generally bad effect. I understand the Bengeo rat run problem and the impact it has on the residents, which is why I don't use it. It's about understanding issues, those that don't directly have an impact on ourselves.
Reply ID 11864
I must be missing something? I understand they have flouted the planning rules, but how does that effect the way other people run their own businesses or lives. Subject to what they have done being safe of course?
Reply ID 11870
quote:I cannot believe you are being so obtuse. It affects the way the town evolves. Slowly the character of the town changes and one day you'll think to yourself "what happened to Hertford?" and it'll be too late. Like a cancer. It doesn't affect your day to day life then one day you find it difficult to breathe and then you find out it's too late to treat. The evolution of a town has to be controlled, particularly when making permanent changes. Sometimes an apparently subtle change can have a bearing on the way a town "works". The effect may not be immediately visible - it could take months or even years - but by then the damage is done.
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
I must be missing something? I understand they have flouted the planning rules, but how does that effect the way other people run their own businesses or lives. Subject to what they have done being safe of course?
Reply ID 11877
Fair points Nora, but I like what they have done to Cafe Nero irrespective of rules. Had it been awful, such as when Zeros painted itself that nasty colour, I am sure the council would have made them change it, as they did to Zeros. Storm in a t-cup springs to mind. I cant belive there has not been more made on that isore "The Ebe" and they apparently used the correct channels.
Reply ID 11879
quote:I think the Ebe looks great and is a balanced addition to the building fabric of the town. This is a subjective view however as are a lot of the posts on this topic. Without Planning laws we would have planning anarchy!
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
I cant belive there has not been more made on that isore "The Ebe" and they apparently used the correct channels.
Reply ID 11880
Please post any further comments on The Ebe to a new thread. Thanks. [:)]
Reply ID 12057
They have also secured themselves a competitive advantage, Costa were denied planning permission (according to another thread on here) to do the same to Birthdays/Thorntons and gracefully went away to find a different property. Nero saw this and quite possibly decided to flout the law rather than work with something that may result in a no decision and sort it out retrospectivly. The best outcome, close them down and let Costa move in, at least they tried to do it through the proper channels.
Reply ID 12060
quote:That would be fitting..........however, I believe Costa have bought the old Pearces bakery opposite Thorntons.
Originally posted by SMH
They have also secured themselves a competitive advantage, Costa were denied planning permission (according to another thread on here) to do the same to Birthdays/Thorntons and gracefully went away to find a different property. Nero saw this and quite possibly decided to flout the law rather than work with something that may result in a no decision and sort it out retrospectivly. The best outcome, close them down and let Costa move in, at least they tried to do it through the proper channels.
Reply ID 12065
We have a curry corner, what next a coffee corner?
Reply ID 12066
Curry corner?
Reply ID 12070
The Shahensha round to the Tikka Cottage the Bismilla the other take away and sorry forgot for a second that The Ghuru is no more!
Reply ID 16168
Not wishing to pre-judge Wednesday's decision but i think £15000 for three pieces of steel seating is a bit pricey. Now if they were chesterfields I would understand. The only people putting new seats outside on Salisbury square is Caffe Nero themselves - but they'll have to get up very early if they want to beat Mick the Veg and John the Fish to the best spots. Perhaps they'll place a towel there overnight.[:D][;)]
Reply ID 16465
quote:So true! Heir Coffee! [:)][;)]
Originally posted by sloopjohnb
Not wishing to pre-judge Wednesday's decision but i think £15000 for three pieces of steel seating is a bit pricey. Now if they were chesterfields I would understand. The only people putting new seats outside on Salisbury square is Caffe Nero themselves - but they'll have to get up very early if they want to beat Mick the Veg and John the Fish to the best spots. Perhaps they'll place a towel there overnight.[:D][;)]
Reply ID 16475
quote:Please can you tell me what "Wednesday's decision" was? I take it that it was to do with paying a penance for works without permission but that is purely guesswork.
Originally posted by sloopjohnb
Not wishing to pre-judge Wednesday's decision but i think £15000 for three pieces of steel seating is a bit pricey. Now if they were chesterfields I would understand. The only people putting new seats outside on Salisbury square is Caffe Nero themselves - but they'll have to get up very early if they want to beat Mick the Veg and John the Fish to the best spots. Perhaps they'll place a towel there overnight.[:D][;)]
Reply ID 16502
I personally think that some people are far too hung up about caffe nero. They do nice coffee and it is a far more useful addition to the town than the opticians was. They are open they have got retrospective planning permission (which is legally allowed) so please get over it! Regarding the £15000 for seating - somebody is probably making a huge profit and I doubt it will be ploughed back into council funds.
Reply ID 16562
East Herts District Council have just issued the following press release: COUNCIL FINDS GROUNDS TO ALLOW COFFEE SHOP Caffe Nero was granted its planning approval last night – nearly six months after it opened in Hertford – for alterations to the listed building. They had asked for a change of use to a café/bar and had also sought permission to carry out internal shopfitting, install a new timber shopfront and put up signs outside the building. The committee agreed that the applicants should contribute £15,000 towards replacing seats in Salisbury Square, under a legal agreement. They’re also required to carry out some improvements to preserve the building’s historic character, including painting windows and doors in a colour to be agreed with the council, and replacing a ventilation grille with one of cast iron. The retrospective planning application had been made after council staff advised them that alterations they’d made did require planning permission. Although the council had received nine letters from the public and the town council saying that the work carried out by the café had spoilt its character, the committee noted that under the previous occupier, the shopfront and signs were “rather dull and not of special interest.” The café is in a busy pedestrian part of town and is a positive addition to the economic health of the area, they were told. Granting the change of use, the development control committee also said food could not be cooked from scratch in the café. Chairman of the development control committee, councillor Ralph Gilbert, said afterwards: “The applicants weren’t asking for anything that wouldn’t have been approved had they sought permission before going ahead with the work. And it didn’t affect the committee’s decision. “However, although people are allowed to apply for retrospective permission, it’s certainly preferable that they get permission before they start. Otherwise they could find themselves faced with a costly bill to undo work they’ve already done if permission is refused.” The law allows businesses and individuals to apply for retrospective permission, and planning decisions taken by the council cannot be affected by the fact that an application may be made after work has already been carried out. However if permission is then refused an applicant runs the risk that they would be required to reverse any changes they had made.
Reply ID 16566
Thanks for that Steve, information gratefully received. I, too, think that they are a good addition to the town and am pleased that they are here. The square is more alive with them than it was with Rose's opticians. It's also great to be able to get a coffee in town with the option of soya milk (no cow for me, nosirree[:)]!) One can also imagine the not insignificant fine and required changes are an encouragement for other prosepective companies not to go ahead without permissions. Though will Hertford be able to forgive & forget Nero's fiddling with protocol?
Reply ID 16580
In light of this ruling, exactly what was different with the planning application Costa submitted for the Thorntons store? If the council say that Nero ripping out Windows, erecting signs etc would have been gtranted had they applied for permission prior to carrying out the works, Costa must have applied for pretty hefty work to get it refused.
Reply ID 16589
good point, the fair one. I am not familiar with the costa decision but given that it is very close by, then any signage/new windows should (to a layman) be just as allowable as neros. It is percieved inconsistancies like this that cause the man in the street to scratch his head when reading of planning decisions.
Reply ID 16605
Having Caffe Nero in town is not a problem. I have not spoken to anyone who objects to their presence. Coming in and applying for retrospective permission has angered a lot of people. Can i ask Farrow and Farrow why didn't they open and seek planning permission aferwards. or Nick Shipton? Or the new owners of Oxfam Music Shop. Having read the Planning Officers report he has actually taken on board all that was said about listed building consent. If you can unravel the many sub paragraphs about Government exceptions to Local Plans etc you will realise that everything was done to approve this application and i quote: 'To conclude, it is considered that a change of use to a mixed A1/A3 use,although the A3 element would be contrary to Policy SH12 of the adopted East Herts Local Plan, it does meet some of the aims and objectives of recently issued Central Government Planning Policy Statement 6.' You have to ask yourself what is the point of a Local Plan if the council that wrote it then ignores it. As for Costa cafe: 'Reference has been made to the refusal of permission in March 2005 to change the use of 19 Railway Street from a shop to a coffee shop (LPA reference 3/05/0046/FP). Whilst comparisons can be drawn with the change of use application at 2-4 Salisbury Square, the main frontage of the premises at 19 Railway Street is located along a confined pedestrian road which predominantly comprises of shops. The change of use of 19 Railway Street was therefore considered to have a significant impact on the existing shopping frontage.' Make of that what you will. Where they went wrong was to ask for approval first. And we could have been sitting outside having a cup of coffee almost a year earlier. Even in their own statement caffe Nero say that their main trade at 7.30am is takeaway coffee which no one could object to as A1 use which if Costa Coffee was on a shopping frontage would blend in nicely with all the other retail type places. 'The operators consider that their particular operations form part of A1 retail use. This is supported by their turnover of sales figures relating to coffee and sandwiches and claim that no primary cooking on site as sandwiches pastries and cakes are delivered to site everyday and the opening hours are 7a.m to 7.30p.m.' So no surprises at all then.
Reply ID 16623
quote:You can. We were speaking to Robin Uff before we'd even signed the contract. This was all my doing as I inherited the "don't cross the law" mentality of my scottish granny and live in constant dread of being caught, which is why I offer myself up on a sacrificial platter even when I don't need to.[:)] I'm not, not have ever been, in agreement with the "Work First, Approval Later" approach. This translates as big-boy tactics backed up with expensive lawyers that we wee folk can't afford, hence our obedience. I did also say, in support of the council and the planning rules, that the not inconsiderable fine would hopefully be a deterrent to other big Co.s that would treat Nero's behaviour as their pathfinder.
Originally posted by sloopjohnb
Can i ask Farrow and Farrow why didn't they open and seek planning permission aferwards.