Topic ID 6580
Sainsbury’s has not even opened yet and I am really losing my patience with the traffic congestion around that site. It took me 40 minutes today to get from the police station round about to Hartham common today. They had some big lorry that was unable to get around the corner of Hartham Lane (where Circles nursery is) so the roads were literally grid locked with no traffic moving anywhere. People park on both sides of the road on Hartham Lane so the large lorries cannot turn into the lane. I go to the gym at Hartham and will unfortunately have to think about moving to another gym if this is an example of the traffic I am going to sit in just to get to my local leisure centre. I am astonished the council agreed to this development - any idiot can see we don’t have the infrastructure in an old town to cope with it! Rant over!
Reply ID 88009
Don't know if it was the same lorry but there was one trying to turn in Hartham Lane when I went down at 10.30 similar situation, not helped by people who ignore Keep Clear signs........... I think they will at least have to make Hartham Lane double yellow lines if they have any hope of keepinbg the traffic moving.
Reply ID 88010
Yes it was at 10am Marilyn. Shocking they are still letting cars park on Hartham Lane when they know huge trucks are now going around that corner!!
Reply ID 88011
It was chaos. I walked along Cowbridge about 10 past 10 and it was a nightmare. There were 2 Sainsburys construction workers trying to get traffic past the lorry, which meant most vehicles were mounting the path. The lorry eventually was able to get into Hartham Lane which meant traffic did move, albeit slowly. I left about half past 10 having seen the chaos, apparently the police turned up to try and get things sorted. Its only going to get so much worse once Sainsburys open, especially in the rush hours. Its never going to work.
Reply ID 88019
There was a particular problem with a double parked van which blocked the lorry from taking a normal line, coupled with four other vehicles parked too near the junction. Other motorists on Cowbridge crowding the tail of the lorry and not observing the "Keep Clear" sections, prevented it from backing up a few feet to get round the van. The driver was found and the van moved as I walked past and the other vehicles moved onto site. It appears to be one contracting firm who had just arrived and not yet been instructed where to park on site. The general level of congestion in Hertford was further worsened by persons driving very short distances to go to the gym and not realising how very weird a thing that is to do, since the object of a gym is to get fit.
Reply ID 88022
Ive seen that film Nightmare on Hartham with Freddy Kruger as the traffic warden.
Reply ID 88028
very well said shunt! _precisely_ the point there.
Reply ID 88030
Shunt I take it the dig about the gym was directed to me. I live 3 miles away from the gym and proceed to work after the gym which is a further 9 miles away. I hope that is acceptable for you?
Reply ID 88033
No, no. You all have it all so wrong. I made this comment some time ago but the good and great argued that there would be no traffic problems.............I think they used the word 'displacement'. So they must be right. You must have imagined it.
Reply ID 88036
quote:There was always going to be an impact of the right turn at a local level. Tesco hardly fails to impact Mill road either. Perhaps if other local roads, Byde Street/Port vale for instance, were better used, it might lessen the load on Cowbridge. [}:)]
Originally posted by Ewoowar
No, no. You all have it all so wrong. I made this comment some time ago but the good and great argued that there would be no traffic problems.............I think they used the word 'displacement'. So they must be right. You must have imagined it.
Reply ID 88037
quote:Not quite that specific, no. Plenty drive to gyms or start a walk at Hartham, whereas it would be more logical to make the walk to those locations part the exercise and pleasure.
Originally posted by VC1
Shunt I take it the dig about the gym was directed to me. I live 3 miles away from the gym and proceed to work after the gym which is a further 9 miles away. I hope that is acceptable for you?
Reply ID 88041
quote:The yellow lines are missing at the top of Hartham lane where some roadworks alongside the pavement leading to Hartham have wiped them out. Despite being an obviously bad place to park, workers on the Sainsbury's site are parking there every morning, pretty much right up to the junction with Cowbridge. With traffic parked on the right-hand side as you look into Hartham, and now traffic on the left, it bottlenecks the entrance and causes jams if people are trying to leave at the same time as enter. I guess someone will replace the yellow lines at some point.... :-)
Originally posted by shunt There was a particular problem with a double parked van which blocked the lorry from taking a normal line, coupled with four other vehicles parked too near the junction...
Reply ID 88105
I don't see what the fuss is about. lorries have been coming and going from McMullens for years.
Reply ID 88111
quote:Indeed they have. From my vantage point at Hartham Lane junction and passing down that road several times a day, it's fairly obvious what causes it all to grind to a halt. 1. The lights at Old Cross are poorly timed for heavy flow from Cowbridge. 2. There has been a huge increase in private cars dropping off too lazy to walk kids at the pool/skate park or equally lazy adults driving to the gym. 3. Because of the lights timing, people push at the keep clear zones, worried they will miss the lights if they give way. 4. Has already been mentioned, but it is not usually the Sainsbury crew exploiting the missing road markings, but others saving on the daily parking charges in the town centre. People blame Sainbury, local council, anybody they can think of for traffic congestion, but if you are in a car, it's your fault at least in part. 90% of the cars that pass here have one person in them. Women particularly seem to like driving on their own in truck sized Audis and VW Tourags and I recognise many of the drivers as living within one mile of their destination. My usual destination is about a mile away. It takes 25 mins by car, 15 on foot and 8 mins on a bicycle. VC's long car journey from Ware Rd to Hartham takes about the same by other means. Ok, VC apparently lives 3 miles from the gym, so obviously wasn't starting at Ware Rd or in Hertford, but many of the visitors there really are that close and still drive.
Originally posted by aubend
I don't see what the fuss is about. lorries have been coming and going from McMullens for years.
Reply ID 88122
quote:Like today, maybe [:)]
Originally posted by Ted Badger I guess someone will replace the yellow lines at some point.... :-)
Reply ID 88123
quote:Perfectly put. Best post so far.
Originally posted by shuntquote:Indeed they have. From my vantage point at Hartham Lane junction and passing down that road several times a day, it's fairly obvious what causes it all to grind to a halt. 1. The lights at Old Cross are poorly timed for heavy flow from Cowbridge. 2. There has been a huge increase in private cars dropping off too lazy to walk kids at the pool/skate park or equally lazy adults driving to the gym. 3. Because of the lights timing, people push at the keep clear zones, worried they will miss the lights if they give way. 4. Has already been mentioned, but it is not usually the Sainsbury crew exploiting the missing road markings, but others saving on the daily parking charges in the town centre. People blame Sainbury, local council, anybody they can think of for traffic congestion, but if you are in a car, it's your fault at least in part. 90% of the cars that pass here have one person in them. Women particularly seem to like driving on their own in truck sized Audis and VW Tourags and I recognise many of the drivers as living within one mile of their destination. My usual destination is about a mile away. It takes 25 mins by car, 15 on foot and 8 mins on a bicycle. VC's long car journey from Ware Rd to Hartham takes about the same by other means. Ok, VC apparently lives 3 miles from the gym, so obviously wasn't starting at Ware Rd or in Hertford, but many of the visitors there really are that close and still drive.
Originally posted by aubend
I don't see what the fuss is about. lorries have been coming and going from McMullens for years.
Reply ID 88126
quote:Very funny. "There has been a huge increase in private cars dropping off too lazy to walk kids at the pool/skate park or equally lazy adults driving to the gym" Has this really happened? Has there really, honestly been a HUGE increase? Then what has caused this HUGE increase? Nothing. It hasn't happened. From the 'vantage point' you mention you have clearly scrutinized every vehicle as the ypass and scanned them with your go-go-gadget x-ray specs and seen the scooters, skateboards, speedos and even the gym membership cards in their bags inside the cars. You should work for the military or secret service. There has always been traffic going to the gym, the pool and the park. I stated this repeatedly in many posts regarding the disregard for traffic concerns relating to the sainsburys development. The traffic has always been there. So don't try to blame problems and justify your previous comments about 'displacement' on some sudden massive influx of traffic. Parents dropping kids off to the skate park? Garbage. What? is that two or three hundred an hour? I haven't heard of the pool and gym closing due to overcrowding. I haven't noticed a sudden change in driving habits. Accept it. You stick a supermarket in a town and it attracts traffic. End of. Not complicated.
Originally posted by shuntquote:Indeed they have. From my vantage point at Hartham Lane junction and passing down that road several times a day, it's fairly obvious what causes it all to grind to a halt. 1. The lights at Old Cross are poorly timed for heavy flow from Cowbridge. 2. There has been a huge increase in private cars dropping off too lazy to walk kids at the pool/skate park or equally lazy adults driving to the gym. 3. Because of the lights timing, people push at the keep clear zones, worried they will miss the lights if they give way. 4. Has already been mentioned, but it is not usually the Sainsbury crew exploiting the missing road markings, but others saving on the daily parking charges in the town centre. People blame Sainbury, local council, anybody they can think of for traffic congestion, but if you are in a car, it's your fault at least in part. 90% of the cars that pass here have one person in them. Women particularly seem to like driving on their own in truck sized Audis and VW Tourags and I recognise many of the drivers as living within one mile of their destination. My usual destination is about a mile away. It takes 25 mins by car, 15 on foot and 8 mins on a bicycle. VC's long car journey from Ware Rd to Hartham takes about the same by other means. Ok, VC apparently lives 3 miles from the gym, so obviously wasn't starting at Ware Rd or in Hertford, but many of the visitors there really are that close and still drive.
Originally posted by aubend
I don't see what the fuss is about. lorries have been coming and going from McMullens for years.
Reply ID 88133
1960's - 10 million cars 1970's - 15 million cars 1980's - 20 million cars ~ 2011 - 34 million cars I think it probably just creeps up on you... :-)
Reply ID 88138
We always knew this was going to be a problem but the planners in thier wisdom could not seem to agree with us and it sounds like the lack of yellow lines and people taking advantage of that are not helping the situation. Indeed there have always been lorries at that junction but not as many as their will be and to as much traffic wanting to turn down there generally as Sainsbury's will generate. I think I saw a lorry one day on The Folly that was looking for Sainsburys site, if it was a Sat Nav error that will be fun if it happens a lot!
Reply ID 88139
we can go round the houses as much as we like,(no pun intended)but I think that the " one's we must obey" made a really bad decision letting sainsburys build there. But I must agree with most people, in that Hertford needs a better and different supermarket, but where do you build it?
Reply ID 88140
quote:Purely hypothetical and leading off-topic [:)]
Originally posted by water
we can go round the houses as much as we like,(no pun intended)but I think that the " one's we must obey" made a really bad decision letting sainsburys build there. But I must agree with most people, in that Hertford needs a better and different supermarket, but where do you build it?
Reply ID 88141
quote:Will you buy a car just to go to Sainsbury? Will anyone? I doubt it. All the potential customers are already driving in Hertford. The improvements in management of the gym have radically increased it's popularity. The skate park did not exist until recently. Hence, the new traffic for facilities which did not previously exist. Sainbury is a shop. All the people who will visit it are currently shopping, maybe at Tesco, or Waitrose and driving to those locations. There are not people who are sitting at home thinking, "I won't do any shopping or drive, until they finish Sainsbury". Hence the number of cars and shopping trips remains constant, but the distribution of traffic changes. As for my vantage point, I live on Cowbridge, opposite the junction with Hartham Lane. I walk or cycle a route which goes past McMullens, the skatepark and the gym, often several times a day. Yes I do notice changes, the constant stream of cars offloading children with scooters and boards, those who park and head towards the gym in sportswear......... Habits have changed and there is noticably more traffic to these facilities. No xrays or effort required, or any of the other fanciful things you suggest in your desperation to make your point. Just the enhanced observation afforded by not being in a car. Sainsbury will cause an unwelcome local concentration of traffic, just as Tesco did, but it isn't new traffic. No logic can make it so, however hard one tries. Have a nice cup of tea and put radio 4 on for a bit. It's entirely possible that Sainsbury is not being built just to annoy you after all.
Originally posted by Ewoowarquote:Very funny. "There has been a huge increase in private cars dropping off too lazy to walk kids at the pool/skate park or equally lazy adults driving to the gym" Has this really happened? Has there really, honestly been a HUGE increase? Then what has caused this HUGE increase? Nothing. It hasn't happened. From the 'vantage point' you mention you have clearly scrutinized every vehicle as the ypass and scanned them with your go-go-gadget x-ray specs and seen the scooters, skateboards, speedos and even the gym membership cards in their bags inside the cars. You should work for the military or secret service. There has always been traffic going to the gym, the pool and the park. I stated this repeatedly in many posts regarding the disregard for traffic concerns relating to the sainsburys development. The traffic has always been there. So don't try to blame problems and justify your previous comments about 'displacement' on some sudden massive influx of traffic. Parents dropping kids off to the skate park? Garbage. What? is that two or three hundred an hour? I haven't heard of the pool and gym closing due to overcrowding. I haven't noticed a sudden change in driving habits. Accept it. You stick a supermarket in a town and it attracts traffic. End of. Not complicated.
Originally posted by shuntquote:Indeed they have. From my vantage point at Hartham Lane junction and passing down that road several times a day, it's fairly obvious what causes it all to grind to a halt. 1. The lights at Old Cross are poorly timed for heavy flow from Cowbridge. 2. There has been a huge increase in private cars dropping off too lazy to walk kids at the pool/skate park or equally lazy adults driving to the gym. 3. Because of the lights timing, people push at the keep clear zones, worried they will miss the lights if they give way. 4. Has already been mentioned, but it is not usually the Sainsbury crew exploiting the missing road markings, but others saving on the daily parking charges in the town centre. People blame Sainbury, local council, anybody they can think of for traffic congestion, but if you are in a car, it's your fault at least in part. 90% of the cars that pass here have one person in them. Women particularly seem to like driving on their own in truck sized Audis and VW Tourags and I recognise many of the drivers as living within one mile of their destination. My usual destination is about a mile away. It takes 25 mins by car, 15 on foot and 8 mins on a bicycle. VC's long car journey from Ware Rd to Hartham takes about the same by other means. Ok, VC apparently lives 3 miles from the gym, so obviously wasn't starting at Ware Rd or in Hertford, but many of the visitors there really are that close and still drive.
Originally posted by aubend
I don't see what the fuss is about. lorries have been coming and going from McMullens for years.
Reply ID 88142
In France traditionally, hypermarkets and night clubs are built on outlying industrial estates, where the parking is adequate and drunken violence can be contained. Leaving the centre of town to local shops and restaurants - for families and old folk to enjoy. P
quote:
Originally posted by water
we can go round the houses as much as we like,(no pun intended)but I think that the " one's we must obey" made a really bad decision letting sainsburys build there. But I must agree with most people, in that Hertford needs a better and different supermarket, but where do you build it?
Reply ID 88143
quote:Whatever you call it, Sainsbury is a shop, so suitable for town centre. McMullens, or any alternative use of the site, is industrial. Suitable for town centre? None of the arguments for refusing Sainsbury stand up, which is why permission was granted. There's people bleating about low footfall in Hertford all the time. I don't really like the supermarket concept at all, but I'd rather they were not located inconveniently distant, forcing people to drive away from, or worse still, straight though our town.
Originally posted by Paul
In France traditionally, hypermarkets and night clubs are built on outlying industrial estates, where the parking is adequate and drunken violence can be contained. Leaving the centre of town to local shops and restaurants - for families and old folk to enjoy. Pquote:
Originally posted by water
we can go round the houses as much as we like,(no pun intended)but I think that the " one's we must obey" made a really bad decision letting sainsburys build there. But I must agree with most people, in that Hertford needs a better and different supermarket, but where do you build it?
Reply ID 88146
quote:Cup of tea? Radio 4. Ooooh, how nice of you. I shall refrain from responding at the moment to allow you to wallow in your own ignorance. I'm sure you will enjoy it.
Originally posted by shuntquote:Will you buy a car just to go to Sainsbury? Will anyone? I doubt it. All the potential customers are already driving in Hertford. The improvements in management of the gym have radically increased it's popularity. The skate park did not exist until recently. Hence, the new traffic for facilities which did not previously exist. Sainbury is a shop. All the people who will visit it are currently shopping, maybe at Tesco, or Waitrose and driving to those locations. There are not people who are sitting at home thinking, "I won't do any shopping or drive, until they finish Sainsbury". Hence the number of cars and shopping trips remains constant, but the distribution of traffic changes. As for my vantage point, I live on Cowbridge, opposite the junction with Hartham Lane. I walk or cycle a route which goes past McMullens, the skatepark and the gym, often several times a day. Yes I do notice changes, the constant stream of cars offloading children with scooters and boards, those who park and head towards the gym in sportswear......... Habits have changed and there is noticably more traffic to these facilities. No xrays or effort required, or any of the other fanciful things you suggest in your desperation to make your point. Just the enhanced observation afforded by not being in a car. Sainsbury will cause an unwelcome local concentration of traffic, just as Tesco did, but it isn't new traffic. No logic can make it so, however hard one tries. Have a nice cup of tea and put radio 4 on for a bit. It's entirely possible that Sainsbury is not being built just to annoy you after all.
Originally posted by Ewoowarquote:Very funny. "There has been a huge increase in private cars dropping off too lazy to walk kids at the pool/skate park or equally lazy adults driving to the gym" Has this really happened? Has there really, honestly been a HUGE increase? Then what has caused this HUGE increase? Nothing. It hasn't happened. From the 'vantage point' you mention you have clearly scrutinized every vehicle as the ypass and scanned them with your go-go-gadget x-ray specs and seen the scooters, skateboards, speedos and even the gym membership cards in their bags inside the cars. You should work for the military or secret service. There has always been traffic going to the gym, the pool and the park. I stated this repeatedly in many posts regarding the disregard for traffic concerns relating to the sainsburys development. The traffic has always been there. So don't try to blame problems and justify your previous comments about 'displacement' on some sudden massive influx of traffic. Parents dropping kids off to the skate park? Garbage. What? is that two or three hundred an hour? I haven't heard of the pool and gym closing due to overcrowding. I haven't noticed a sudden change in driving habits. Accept it. You stick a supermarket in a town and it attracts traffic. End of. Not complicated.
Originally posted by shuntquote:Indeed they have. From my vantage point at Hartham Lane junction and passing down that road several times a day, it's fairly obvious what causes it all to grind to a halt. 1. The lights at Old Cross are poorly timed for heavy flow from Cowbridge. 2. There has been a huge increase in private cars dropping off too lazy to walk kids at the pool/skate park or equally lazy adults driving to the gym. 3. Because of the lights timing, people push at the keep clear zones, worried they will miss the lights if they give way. 4. Has already been mentioned, but it is not usually the Sainsbury crew exploiting the missing road markings, but others saving on the daily parking charges in the town centre. People blame Sainbury, local council, anybody they can think of for traffic congestion, but if you are in a car, it's your fault at least in part. 90% of the cars that pass here have one person in them. Women particularly seem to like driving on their own in truck sized Audis and VW Tourags and I recognise many of the drivers as living within one mile of their destination. My usual destination is about a mile away. It takes 25 mins by car, 15 on foot and 8 mins on a bicycle. VC's long car journey from Ware Rd to Hartham takes about the same by other means. Ok, VC apparently lives 3 miles from the gym, so obviously wasn't starting at Ware Rd or in Hertford, but many of the visitors there really are that close and still drive.
Originally posted by aubend
I don't see what the fuss is about. lorries have been coming and going from McMullens for years.
Reply ID 88150
quote:Exactly, there will not be any new traffic, you may even find that it reduces traffic in the town as the Bengeo folk will be going to sains rather than tescos.
Originally posted by shuntquote:Will you buy a car just to go to Sainsbury? Will anyone? I doubt it. All the potential customers are already driving in Hertford. The improvements in management of the gym have radically increased it's popularity. The skate park did not exist until recently. Hence, the new traffic for facilities which did not previously exist. Sainbury is a shop. All the people who will visit it are currently shopping, maybe at Tesco, or Waitrose and driving to those locations. There are not people who are sitting at home thinking, "I won't do any shopping or drive, until they finish Sainsbury". Hence the number of cars and shopping trips remains constant, but the distribution of traffic changes. As for my vantage point, I live on Cowbridge, opposite the junction with Hartham Lane. I walk or cycle a route which goes past McMullens, the skatepark and the gym, often several times a day. Yes I do notice changes, the constant stream of cars offloading children with scooters and boards, those who park and head towards the gym in sportswear......... Habits have changed and there is noticably more traffic to these facilities. No xrays or effort required, or any of the other fanciful things you suggest in your desperation to make your point. Just the enhanced observation afforded by not being in a car. Sainsbury will cause an unwelcome local concentration of traffic, just as Tesco did, but it isn't new traffic. No logic can make it so, however hard one tries. Have a nice cup of tea and put radio 4 on for a bit. It's entirely possible that Sainsbury is not being built just to annoy you after all.
Originally posted by Ewoowarquote:Very funny. "There has been a huge increase in private cars dropping off too lazy to walk kids at the pool/skate park or equally lazy adults driving to the gym" Has this really happened? Has there really, honestly been a HUGE increase? Then what has caused this HUGE increase? Nothing. It hasn't happened. From the 'vantage point' you mention you have clearly scrutinized every vehicle as the ypass and scanned them with your go-go-gadget x-ray specs and seen the scooters, skateboards, speedos and even the gym membership cards in their bags inside the cars. You should work for the military or secret service. There has always been traffic going to the gym, the pool and the park. I stated this repeatedly in many posts regarding the disregard for traffic concerns relating to the sainsburys development. The traffic has always been there. So don't try to blame problems and justify your previous comments about 'displacement' on some sudden massive influx of traffic. Parents dropping kids off to the skate park? Garbage. What? is that two or three hundred an hour? I haven't heard of the pool and gym closing due to overcrowding. I haven't noticed a sudden change in driving habits. Accept it. You stick a supermarket in a town and it attracts traffic. End of. Not complicated.
Originally posted by shuntquote:Indeed they have. From my vantage point at Hartham Lane junction and passing down that road several times a day, it's fairly obvious what causes it all to grind to a halt. 1. The lights at Old Cross are poorly timed for heavy flow from Cowbridge. 2. There has been a huge increase in private cars dropping off too lazy to walk kids at the pool/skate park or equally lazy adults driving to the gym. 3. Because of the lights timing, people push at the keep clear zones, worried they will miss the lights if they give way. 4. Has already been mentioned, but it is not usually the Sainsbury crew exploiting the missing road markings, but others saving on the daily parking charges in the town centre. People blame Sainbury, local council, anybody they can think of for traffic congestion, but if you are in a car, it's your fault at least in part. 90% of the cars that pass here have one person in them. Women particularly seem to like driving on their own in truck sized Audis and VW Tourags and I recognise many of the drivers as living within one mile of their destination. My usual destination is about a mile away. It takes 25 mins by car, 15 on foot and 8 mins on a bicycle. VC's long car journey from Ware Rd to Hartham takes about the same by other means. Ok, VC apparently lives 3 miles from the gym, so obviously wasn't starting at Ware Rd or in Hertford, but many of the visitors there really are that close and still drive.
Originally posted by aubend
I don't see what the fuss is about. lorries have been coming and going from McMullens for years.
Reply ID 88151
quote:have you moved? I thought you lived in what was previously a funny coloured house on the outskirts? (I know where it is because my parents looked at it before they purchased their bungalow!)
Originally posted by shuntquote:Will you buy a car just to go to Sainsbury? Will anyone? I doubt it. All the potential customers are already driving in Hertford. The improvements in management of the gym have radically increased it's popularity. The skate park did not exist until recently. Hence, the new traffic for facilities which did not previously exist. Sainbury is a shop. All the people who will visit it are currently shopping, maybe at Tesco, or Waitrose and driving to those locations. There are not people who are sitting at home thinking, "I won't do any shopping or drive, until they finish Sainsbury". Hence the number of cars and shopping trips remains constant, but the distribution of traffic changes. As for my vantage point, I live on Cowbridge, opposite the junction with Hartham Lane. I walk or cycle a route which goes past McMullens, the skatepark and the gym, often several times a day. Yes I do notice changes, the constant stream of cars offloading children with scooters and boards, those who park and head towards the gym in sportswear......... Habits have changed and there is noticably more traffic to these facilities. No xrays or effort required, or any of the other fanciful things you suggest in your desperation to make your point. Just the enhanced observation afforded by not being in a car. Sainsbury will cause an unwelcome local concentration of traffic, just as Tesco did, but it isn't new traffic. No logic can make it so, however hard one tries. Have a nice cup of tea and put radio 4 on for a bit. It's entirely possible that Sainsbury is not being built just to annoy you after all.
Originally posted by Ewoowarquote:Very funny. "There has been a huge increase in private cars dropping off too lazy to walk kids at the pool/skate park or equally lazy adults driving to the gym" Has this really happened? Has there really, honestly been a HUGE increase? Then what has caused this HUGE increase? Nothing. It hasn't happened. From the 'vantage point' you mention you have clearly scrutinized every vehicle as the ypass and scanned them with your go-go-gadget x-ray specs and seen the scooters, skateboards, speedos and even the gym membership cards in their bags inside the cars. You should work for the military or secret service. There has always been traffic going to the gym, the pool and the park. I stated this repeatedly in many posts regarding the disregard for traffic concerns relating to the sainsburys development. The traffic has always been there. So don't try to blame problems and justify your previous comments about 'displacement' on some sudden massive influx of traffic. Parents dropping kids off to the skate park? Garbage. What? is that two or three hundred an hour? I haven't heard of the pool and gym closing due to overcrowding. I haven't noticed a sudden change in driving habits. Accept it. You stick a supermarket in a town and it attracts traffic. End of. Not complicated.
Originally posted by shuntquote:Indeed they have. From my vantage point at Hartham Lane junction and passing down that road several times a day, it's fairly obvious what causes it all to grind to a halt. 1. The lights at Old Cross are poorly timed for heavy flow from Cowbridge. 2. There has been a huge increase in private cars dropping off too lazy to walk kids at the pool/skate park or equally lazy adults driving to the gym. 3. Because of the lights timing, people push at the keep clear zones, worried they will miss the lights if they give way. 4. Has already been mentioned, but it is not usually the Sainsbury crew exploiting the missing road markings, but others saving on the daily parking charges in the town centre. People blame Sainbury, local council, anybody they can think of for traffic congestion, but if you are in a car, it's your fault at least in part. 90% of the cars that pass here have one person in them. Women particularly seem to like driving on their own in truck sized Audis and VW Tourags and I recognise many of the drivers as living within one mile of their destination. My usual destination is about a mile away. It takes 25 mins by car, 15 on foot and 8 mins on a bicycle. VC's long car journey from Ware Rd to Hartham takes about the same by other means. Ok, VC apparently lives 3 miles from the gym, so obviously wasn't starting at Ware Rd or in Hertford, but many of the visitors there really are that close and still drive.
Originally posted by aubend
I don't see what the fuss is about. lorries have been coming and going from McMullens for years.
Reply ID 88155
quote:Sadly, I have not resided in that formally funny coloured, but now completely re-furbished house, since I have been holed up at our former rental property at Cowbridge. Hence my grandstand view of Sainsbury's progress. Edited by Admin 12th June 2012
Originally posted by exiled_in_Reading have you moved? I thought you lived in what was previously a funny coloured house on the outskirts? (I know where it is because my parents looked at it before they purchased their bungalow!)
Reply ID 88156
quote:sorry to hear it :(
Originally posted by shuntquote:Sadly, I have not resided in that formally funny coloured, but now completely re-furbished house, since I have been holed up at our former rental property at Cowbridge. Hence my grandstand view of Sainsbury's progress. Original post edited by Admin
Originally posted by exiled_in_Reading have you moved? I thought you lived in what was previously a funny coloured house on the outskirts? (I know where it is because my parents looked at it before they purchased their bungalow!)
Reply ID 88157
quote:Uggghhhh........my thoughts are in your direction.
Originally posted by shuntquote:Sadly, I have not resided in that formally funny coloured, but now completely re-furbished house, since I have been holed up at our former rental property at Cowbridge. Hence my grandstand view of Sainsbury's progress. Original post edited by Admin
Originally posted by exiled_in_Reading have you moved? I thought you lived in what was previously a funny coloured house on the outskirts? (I know where it is because my parents looked at it before they purchased their bungalow!)
Reply ID 88161
Will you buy a car just to go to Sainsbury? Will anyone? I doubt it. All the potential customers are already driving in Hertford. No. Not I. But you cannot argue that traffic will be redirected to the sainsburys and through an already busy set of junctions. I don't care if it alleviates traffic elsewhere, the concern is what it creates. The improvements in management of the gym have radically increased it's popularity. The skate park did not exist until recently. Hence, the new traffic for facilities which did not previously exist. The gym has always had custom and it surely cannot be argued that a small provincial gym experienced such a significant upturn in custom that it caused traffic problems. That is a ridiculous argument. And the skate park? Are you sure? Are you seriously suggesting that the recent popularity of the skate park has increased traffic in Old Cross and Cowbridge? The throngs, the droves of people rushing to the tiny skate bowl in their cars so they can drop their children off? And you compare this to a supermarket with hundreds of people an hour? C'mon......... people will do anything for an argument but I can only assume yours is a wind up......a tiny skate bowl where kids wouldn't want to be seen turning up in their mums car compared to a supermarket. Frankly, laughable. Sainbury is a shop. All the people who will visit it are currently shopping, maybe at Tesco, or Waitrose and driving to those locations. There are not people who are sitting at home thinking, "I won't do any shopping or drive, until they finish Sainsbury". Hence the number of cars and shopping trips remains constant, but the distribution of traffic changes. So finally you may get it..............or do you? It is okay saying that the distribution changes. It eases traffic elsewhere.......but if the new focus of traffic congestion causes a problem, as I exect it will, is that okay? So, if old Cross and Cowbridge experience traffic problems because of the sainsburys is it okay if we can say, "Don't worry, the town centre and Ware Road are much better"? How short sighted and ill-thought. If I need to lose weight I can't chop off my foot and think "Great! Job done!"................"oh, I can't walk..........I didn't think that one through did I?" the constant stream of cars offloading children with scooters and boards, those who park and head towards the gym in sportswear......... A "constant stream"?......Again....are you stretching things just a tad far in order to try to substantiate your already flawed argument? I was down there this afternoon. if there was a "constant stream" I'd have noticed it. But in over half an hour, with the skate park pretty busy, not a single car dropped off a child. Using terms such as "constant stream" has to be based on truth, not nonsense. For "constant stream" I would reasonably expect cars flowing down to Hartham, doors flung open and kids exiting with their scooters...... constantly. And CONSTANTLY is the operative word. Sainsburys is here. Like it or lump it. It will increase traffic in the Old Cross and Cowbridge area. Even their traffic consultant agreed with me on that point. If Siansburys didn't want to attract hundreds and thousands of peopleto their new store they wouldn't build it. It would not be viable. But they did. And with it comes cars. That is why they are building a car park. For cars. Geddit? cars. Brrrm.....brrrm. However clearly, from your wonderful vantage point and vast knowledge the main issue is not the hundreds of people visiting the new supermarket it is the occasional person dropping their child off at a tiny skate bowl! Hilarious! Some people will do anything to cling on to an argument.
Reply ID 88163
quote:The subject at the moment had turned to the supermarket under construction, not the supermarket when open. Obviously the supermarket when open will pull a significant amount of traffic from other traffic hotspots in Hertford (the re-distribution and displascement effect you appear to deny). Of course it will increase traffic in the immediate vacinity and npnody could argue with that, or has. However, the current problem and the one I was addressing is not caused by supermarket customers because..... it isn't open yet.
Originally posted by Ewoowar
Will you buy a car just to go to Sainsbury? Will anyone? I doubt it. All the potential customers are already driving in Hertford. No. Not I. But you cannot argue that traffic will be redirected to the sainsburys and through an already busy set of junctions. I don't care if it alleviates traffic elsewhere, the concern is what it creates. The improvements in management of the gym have radically increased it's popularity. The skate park did not exist until recently. Hence, the new traffic for facilities which did not previously exist. The gym has always had custom and it surely cannot be argued that a small provincial gym experienced such a significant upturn in custom that it caused traffic problems. That is a ridiculous argument. And the skate park? Are you sure? Are you seriously suggesting that the recent popularity of the skate park has increased traffic in Old Cross and Cowbridge? The throngs, the droves of people rushing to the tiny skate bowl in their cars so they can drop their children off? And you compare this to a supermarket with hundreds of people an hour? C'mon......... people will do anything for an argument but I can only assume yours is a wind up......a tiny skate bowl where kids wouldn't want to be seen turning up in their mums car compared to a supermarket. Frankly, laughable. Sainbury is a shop. All the people who will visit it are currently shopping, maybe at Tesco, or Waitrose and driving to those locations. There are not people who are sitting at home thinking, "I won't do any shopping or drive, until they finish Sainsbury". Hence the number of cars and shopping trips remains constant, but the distribution of traffic changes. So finally you may get it..............or do you? It is okay saying that the distribution changes. It eases traffic elsewhere.......but if the new focus of traffic congestion causes a problem, as I exect it will, is that okay? So, if old Cross and Cowbridge experience traffic problems because of the sainsburys is it okay if we can say, "Don't worry, the town centre and Ware Road are much better"? How short sighted and ill-thought. If I need to lose weight I can't chop off my foot and think "Great! Job done!"................"oh, I can't walk..........I didn't think that one through did I?" the constant stream of cars offloading children with scooters and boards, those who park and head towards the gym in sportswear......... A "constant stream"?......Again....are you stretching things just a tad far in order to try to substantiate your already flawed argument? I was down there this afternoon. if there was a "constant stream" I'd have noticed it. But in over half an hour, with the skate park pretty busy, not a single car dropped off a child. Using terms such as "constant stream" has to be based on truth, not nonsense. For "constant stream" I would reasonably expect cars flowing down to Hartham, doors flung open and kids exiting with their scooters...... constantly. And CONSTANTLY is the operative word. Sainsburys is here. Like it or lump it. It will increase traffic in the Old Cross and Cowbridge area. Even their traffic consultant agreed with me on that point. If Siansburys didn't want to attract hundreds and thousands of peopleto their new store they wouldn't build it. It would not be viable. But they did. And with it comes cars. That is why they are building a car park. For cars. Geddit? cars. Brrrm.....brrrm. However clearly, from your wonderful vantage point and vast knowledge the main issue is not the hundreds of people visiting the new supermarket it is the occasional person dropping their child off at a tiny skate bowl! Hilarious! Some people will do anything to cling on to an argument.
Reply ID 88164
My apologies for inaccurate typing, by the way, folks. I'm am working with limited and rapidly failing facilities here. :(
Reply ID 88166
quote:Is that "facilities" or "faculties"? [8D]
Originally posted by shunt
My apologies for inaccurate typing, by the way, folks. I'm am working with limited and rapidly failing facilities here. :(
Reply ID 88168
quote:A bit of both, I reckon.
Originally posted by Darcy Sartoquote:Is that "facilities" or "faculties"? [8D]
Originally posted by shunt
My apologies for inaccurate typing, by the way, folks. I'm am working with limited and rapidly failing facilities here. :(
Reply ID 88169
quote:That is the second time I have noticed that you know where us anonymous bods on t'internet live. Is your occupation Stalker?
Originally posted by exiled_in_Reading
have you moved? I thought you lived in what was previously a funny coloured house on the outskirts? (I know where it is because my parents looked at it before they purchased their bungalow!)
Reply ID 88170
My father says a 15 minute wait this morning while more than one lorry tried to negotiate the juction, he is probably exagerating as men do but there was some sort of problem there again. Lets hope the delivies when it is open only come one at a time.
Reply ID 88172
quote:The thing is, I'm not actually anonymous, more infamous and my handle is my name. I'm not at all surprised people know my business and care not one jot. It's what's so lovely and horrific about this giant village we live in.
Originally posted by Kateg28quote:That is the second time I have noticed that you know where us anonymous bods on t'internet live. Is your occupation Stalker?
Originally posted by exiled_in_Reading
have you moved? I thought you lived in what was previously a funny coloured house on the outskirts? (I know where it is because my parents looked at it before they purchased their bungalow!)
Reply ID 88173
quote:There was an empty lorry parked on the double yellow lines by the junction when I walked past earlier. No traffic warden to be seen, of course, too busy clobbering people who overstay their pay-and-display by 5 minutes. But if people are going to ignore the road markings on that junction we're going to have problems irrespective of any other factors.
Originally posted by Marilyn
My father says a 15 minute wait this morning while more than one lorry tried to negotiate the juction, he is probably exagerating as men do but there was some sort of problem there again.
Reply ID 88174
Now we've started this, I'm paying a little more attention to what is going on. Earlier today, the traffic snarled up twice whilst I was passing. On both occasions the probem was that traffic waiting for the Old Cross lights did not leave the junction clear. This meant a lorry (on one occasion) and a car (on the other) were unable to turn right and therfore blocked traffic coming in the other direction. Other vehicles behind had not waited for the junction to be clear before crossing the stop line from the Wash lights. Consequently, the junction was not clear when the lights changed again and traffic waiting to turn right into St Andrews Street could not move. Hence the keep clear sections remained blocked and so it went on. Inconsiderate, discourteous driving and failing to read the road ahead is almost always the cause of traffic congestion and this is no exception. Now, I have always puzzled about how Sainsbury will be able to get sufficient flow into Hartham Lane to do business. However that is their problem. I do see considerable advantages to their central location though and that it will enable more people to shop on foot, or shorten their current shopping journey by car. The level of car usage and congestion is not actually their responsibility, but ours. It is not the council's responsibility either. Every time we get into our cars, we make the decision to add to the number of vehicles in Hertford, or not. Congestion is caused by drivers, nobody else.
Reply ID 88175
Maybe they should have made it one way, in from Old Cross out via the Folly now that would have been fun to watch[}:)]
Reply ID 88249
There is an article in today's Mercury about the lorry problem and the new yellow lines..........................
Reply ID 88267
I reckon that there will be traffic lights installed at the end of Hartham Lane within 12 months. They'll 'work' in tandem with the ones at Old Cross. If my prediction is correct, someone can buy me a Cornetto from Sainsbury's Coffee Shop.
Reply ID 88268
I won’t be surprised if the councillor/s who agreed to this development is sacked within 12 months!
Reply ID 88270
quote:You mean promoted ??
Originally posted by VC1
I won’t be surprised if the councillor/s who agreed to this development is sacked within 12 months!
Reply ID 88271
quote:Can you ever see this happening?
Originally posted by Marilyn
Maybe they should have made it one way, in from Old Cross out via the Folly now that would have been fun to watch[}:)]
Reply ID 88272
quote:Do you mean the Government Inspector from Bristol? The final go-ahead as given by The Planning Inspectorate after the matter was called in by The Secretary Of State.
Originally posted by VC1
I won’t be surprised if the councillor/s who agreed to this development is sacked within 12 months!
Reply ID 88273
quote:No I wasn't serious.................imagine what that would do to Bull Plain! It was bad enough I saw what I am sure was a delivery driver on Bull Palin trying to get to sainsbury's no doubt blamed his Sat Nav
Originally posted by Louis Mquote:Can you ever see this happening?
Originally posted by Marilyn
Maybe they should have made it one way, in from Old Cross out via the Folly now that would have been fun to watch[}:)]