Topic ID 5728
There is an annoucement on the Council website on a proposal to expand Abel Smith School to admit an additional class from September 2012. See http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/c/abelsmith.pdf No further details are available but I'd be interested to know more about what is actually proposed to the site / building and how and where the new space will fit in. drb
Reply ID 78913
I'm interested in this too. One thing I'm not entirely sure about from the document is what will happen to the extra 30 children once the reception year is over, to which school will they go? Or is the intention to expand Abel Smith to 2 classes per year in which case even with the expansion into the "Rivers" building/rebuilding where are they going to put an extra 7 classrooms?
Reply ID 78914
What is interesting is that the council finally seem to be addressing the stark staring obvious fact that many people leave North London to move to Hertford to bring up their children and that the schooling provision has to adapt to allow for it.
Reply ID 78916
quote:New building
Originally posted by Jackanapes
I'm interested in this too. One thing I'm not entirely sure about from the document is what will happen to the extra 30 children once the reception year is over, to which school will they go? Or is the intention to expand Abel Smith to 2 classes per year in which case even with the expansion into the "Rivers" building/rebuilding where are they going to put an extra 7 classrooms?
Reply ID 78920
The letter is really badly written, but I think it means that academic year 2012/13 will be a 2 form entry so there would only be one additional classroom to deal with the population bulge in that year as those children (hopefully including mine!) move through the school. I don't think that it proposed to be a 2 form entry on a permanent basis, based on first sentence on the second page of the letter. Same has happened this year at Watchlytes in WGC; a double mobile classroom was permitted on a temporary basis.
Reply ID 78921
quote:2 form entry beginning with just reception in 1st year, then reception/year 1 in 2nd year etc. over a 6 yr period until 2 forms across all years.
Originally posted by SMT I don't think that it proposed to be a 2 form entry on a permanent basis, based on first sentence on the second page of the letter.
Reply ID 78928
What the council fail to mention in there poorly written letter (Clearly intended to bamboozle, in the light that they know most parents with children at Abel Smith will be against it) Is that there is an empty school at Pinehurst - Where I am led to believe is the area where the extra places are needed. Why would you spend taxpaying money building / expanding on a school with so little space, when there are empty school buildings and many of the other local schools have acres more grounds than Abel School. The traffic issues alone should be enough to make it a bad idea. We walk to school and the traffic up there is ridiculous at the best of times. One of the many reasons Abel Smith is such a good environment is that, because of it's small size every pupil (from yr1 to 6!) and teachers, know each other by name. I could go on, but the thought that this will happen regardless of what the public think depresses me enough. (Thats Mrs Publandlord!)
Reply ID 78929
quote:100% agree - glad my children are now at secondary.
Originally posted by publandlord
What the council fail to mention in there poorly written letter (Clearly intended to bamboozle, in the light that they know most parents with children at Abel Smith will be against it) Is that there is an empty school at Pinehurst - Where I am led to believe is the area where the extra places are needed. Why would you spend taxpaying money building / expanding on a school with so little space, when there are empty school buildings and many of the other local schools have acres more grounds than Abel School. The traffic issues alone should be enough to make it a bad idea. We walk to school and the traffic up there is ridiculous at the best of times. One of the many reasons Abel Smith is such a good environment is that, because of it's small size every pupil (from yr1 to 6!) and teachers, know each other by name. I could go on, but the thought that this will happen regardless of what the public think depresses me enough. (Thats Mrs Publandlord!)
Reply ID 78930
publandlord, completely agree with all your comments. I don't know a single parent of children at the school who is in favour of this expansion. I think some of the council logic is misleading, yes I know the school is heavily oversubscribed, but how much of that is from parents with alternative schools closer to them? I know of some people from Pinehurst, Hornsmill area and Bengeo all applying for Abel Smith as their 1st choice. If things are really that bad, why are there currently spaces in at least 2 of the classes? I fully recognise the need for more school places in Hertford, I just think the current proposals are not sensible. The school is just about big enough for it's current pupils. The proposals do not appear to double the size of the school, although they want to double the number of pupils. One thing that really concerns me is in the letter from the head, where it states the impact on the pupils of building work will be limited as the accommodation will be built off site and transported in. So that means portakabins for classrooms, which in my opinion are not suitable environments for learning, they are freezing in winter and boiling in the summer. The cynic in me believes this is already a done deal. I think it's the cheapest way of solving a problem, and I accept that in the current economic climate cost should be a key consideration, but I think the impact on local residents and current pupils has not been one of the councils priorities.
Reply ID 78931
If by the school on Pinehurst you mean the old Pines building, it was converted to a family assessment unit approximately two years ago.
Reply ID 78932
There were similar plans for Wheatcroft a year ago http://www.hertford.net/yoursay/topic.php?id=4783
Reply ID 78933
quote:What proposal though? All thats happened so far is a statement of intent - no plans have been drawn up yet. Portakabins is an assumption - I don't think they have been specifically mentioned
Originally posted by Pinny The proposals do not appear to double the size of the school, although they want to double the number of pupils. One thing that really concerns me is in the letter from the head, where it states the impact on the pupils of building work will be limited as the accommodation will be built off site and transported in. So that means portakabins for classrooms,
Reply ID 78934
Surely if the demand on the eastern side of town is there, wouldn't a cheaper option be to reopen the Pines school, rather than these mobile classrooms. This might also help Wheatcroft as well. Or is that too easy a solution.
Reply ID 78935
You are right Leo that portakbins have not been specifically mentioned. A letter from Mr Boulton the Headteacher was sent out on Friday. Some specific items mentioned in that letter were "A new building for key stage 2 would be built. The time the builders will be on our site would be kept to a minimum as most of the building would be built off site and then transported in. The position and exact design of the new building is currently being considered". So read into that what you will. It seems clear that the new building will go on the current field, as it says "We would retain as much of the field as possible but would also be allocated a detached playing field, in walking distance of the school. I envisage using this for sports days, football matches and some Key Stage 2 PE". This will dramatically change the school facilities and will be a real disadvantage to the children over what they presently have. I assume current after school clubs, such as football and rugby, will not be able to happen on site either. I have yet to be convinced that the limited outside space that will remain will be able to accomodate double the number of puils. There are numerous concerns regarding many different aspects of the whole proposal and the impact it will have on children currently at the school. There is a meeting at the school on Thursday 10th February at 7pm when they will be able to share plans of the site and answer any questions. I assume they will be inundated!
Reply ID 78936
From the content of a letter sent to parents, it appears to be more than just a statement of intent. There is reference to various plans surrounding accommodation, alternative playing fields, parking and re-routing the footpath that currently exists around the school field. I agree, there has been no mention of portakabins, but as stated earlier the intention is to build the accommodation off site and transport it in, I can't think of much else this can mean.
Reply ID 78937
I guess the meeting will tell us, maybe some other type of prefab building? I was schooled in portakabins and whilst they might have improved now they were cold in winter and boiling in summer, not a good prospect at all Pinny. You are right in the other areas mentioned and I agree it feels more than a statement of intent. Let's hope it is not already a done deal but I fear that may be so. There is certainly much strong feeling though so we will see how it develops.
Reply ID 78955
What Consultation Process?Parents|Carers have been addressed as “consultees” in the recent letter from HCC and have been invited to give their comments. However, they have been given insufficient information upon which to comment – plans and feasibility studies are not readily available for inspection. Has the Council made the right choice?How can the Council be sure that the current birth rate will increase sufficiently to warrant an additional 30 permanent places in the town centre? There is a suggestion that Morgans School could accommodate an additional 15 children per year on a temporary basis. Apparently Wheatcroft parents received a letter this week to tell them that their governing body had rejected proposal to increase to 2 class intake and that Morgans would take the extra children until Abel Smith was established 2 class intake school! Proposal rejected on the fact that they were offered field at old Pines site and they couldn’t walk children up there as lack of staff for adult to child ratio needed. What should you do?YOU MUST have your say by completing the online form at http://www.hertsdirect.org/schoolplaces BY 21 FEBRUARY; share your views with other parents here Attend the next Governors’ Forum and let them know your views. Also attend Council Planning meetings mentioned in our first letter of intent from the Council to show strength of feeling against this proposal NB you are not permitted to speak at these meetings unless you have registered your intention to do so beforehand; you have a very strict time limit in which to speak. MOST IMPORTANTLY YOU MUST ATTEND THE MEETING AT THE SCHOOL You could also write to Mark Prisk MP, House of Commons, London SW1A 0AA giving your reasons for opposing the proposals. Your reasons might include: Loss of the playing field?At a time when the Government is promoting healthier lifestyles, the loss of the playing field may have an impact on the amount of exercise the children receive. If provision for a playing field is made off site, how does the School propose transporting the children safely? Mr Boulton says that there will be some of the school field left (he wants a two storey new building if possible) as KS1 children will not be able to be walked off site. What is the rationale for KS2 children? Surely there is an adult:children limit on this too – this was cited as a reason for Wheatcroft School rejecting the Old Pines playing field? Lack of provision for carsAlthough parents are encouraged to walk their children to school, there are many parents who have to travel directly on to work by car. The Headmaster has liaised with Tesco to allow parents to park their cars in their car park – this has always been possible and doesn’t represent a new solution. Members of the Council planning committee should visit the school at drop off/pick up times (especially on a rainy day) to see for themselves how bad it is now. Additional cars in the vicinity will add to the risk to pedestrians going to both Abel Smith School and Simon Balle School. Is Abel Smith School in a conservation area? Part of the site is of Archaeological Significance The planning application might be rejected if trees have to be destroyed in order to make way for the new building. Apparently Millmead can’t increase due to conservation area rules although they have more land than us. There must be limits at Abel Smith on land/walls etc? What will happen to the Kindergarten and After School Club? Where will the additional teaching staff park? What could we press for if the proposals proceed? *Parents should press for a safe crossing at the end of Fore Street, by Marks and Spencer; *Permit parking at the London Road car park and All Saints Church car park. *Negotiations with Royal Mail|British Gas|British Telecom should be reopened with a view to making their top car park available. Whatever happensAbel Smith is an outstanding school and this won’t change overnight. Please continue to support school social events, volunteer to read in class or help with class projects so that we do not lose the very special community spirit within our School and what makes us unique.
Reply ID 78956
Why does everybody assume that making Abel Smith bigger is a bad thing?
Reply ID 78966
NIMBY ?
Reply ID 78968
I don't have a problem with it. To be honest I can see most primary schools within Hertford expanding in the coming years mainly due increase in people moving from North London to start a family and Hertford with it's good schools is the perfect location.
Reply ID 78969
quote:Agree. Don't see what the problem is with an excellent school wanting to expand. Why shouldn't more children be able to have a good education that this school provides rather than an elite few?
Originally posted by Bubbaoshea
I don't have a problem with it. To be honest I can see most primary schools within Hertford expanding in the coming years mainly due increase in people moving from North London to start a family and Hertford with it's good schools is the perfect location.
Reply ID 78970
I guess it means I now need to start planning for my son as to what school he will go to. Even if he is 6mths old....
Reply ID 78971
quote:Leaving it a bit late aren't you?? [:D]
Originally posted by Bubbaoshea
I guess it means I now need to start planning for my son as to what school he will go to. Even if he is 6mths old....
Reply ID 78973
quote:The school admissions policy has absolutely nothing to do with elitism.
Originally posted by jamesquote:Agree. Don't see what the problem is with an excellent school wanting to expand. Why shouldn't more children be able to have a good education that this school provides rather than an elite few?
Originally posted by Bubbaoshea
I don't have a problem with it. To be honest I can see most primary schools within Hertford expanding in the coming years mainly due increase in people moving from North London to start a family and Hertford with it's good schools is the perfect location.
Reply ID 78974
quote:[?]
Originally posted by jamesquote:Agree. Don't see what the problem is with an excellent school wanting to expand. Why shouldn't more children be able to have a good education that this school provides rather than an elite few?
Originally posted by Bubbaoshea
I don't have a problem with it. To be honest I can see most primary schools within Hertford expanding in the coming years mainly due increase in people moving from North London to start a family and Hertford with it's good schools is the perfect location.
Reply ID 78977
quote:[?]
Originally posted by Stevequote:[?]
Originally posted by jamesquote:Agree. Don't see what the problem is with an excellent school wanting to expand. Why shouldn't more children be able to have a good education that this school provides rather than an elite few?
Originally posted by Bubbaoshea
I don't have a problem with it. To be honest I can see most primary schools within Hertford expanding in the coming years mainly due increase in people moving from North London to start a family and Hertford with it's good schools is the perfect location.
Reply ID 78978
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, of course, but many parents of children at Abel Smith School are opposed to the proposed enlargement because the site simply has insufficient space to accommodate an additional 240 children. We are being neither elitist nor NIMBYist in this belief.
Reply ID 78979
Anyone know how much this would increase the catchment area by? I understand that currently you have to live within something like 400m of the school to get a place (if you don't have a sibling already there or special needs.)
Reply ID 78984
quote:I think your comment illicits surprise. Firstly, regardless of the school's desires or otherwise it is the local authority that makes decisions such as these. Secondly your bizarre reference to an 'elite few'. Neither the school nor the authority are elitist. There is a clear and very transparent admissions policy. Admission to Abel Smith is governed by precisely the same criteria that is used for Wheatcroft, Morgans, Mill Mead, etc, etc, etc.
Originally posted by jamesquote:[?]
Originally posted by Stevequote:[?]
Originally posted by jamesquote:Agree. Don't see what the problem is with an excellent school wanting to expand. Why shouldn't more children be able to have a good education that this school provides rather than an elite few?
Originally posted by Bubbaoshea
I don't have a problem with it. To be honest I can see most primary schools within Hertford expanding in the coming years mainly due increase in people moving from North London to start a family and Hertford with it's good schools is the perfect location.
Reply ID 78995
quote:My kids went through Abel Smith and my initial feelings were against the expansion. However, after rethinking it through, and in the position of now having no attachment to the school its possible to take a more objective view. Billywindsock asked is the expansion a bad thing? I can now actually see some advantages: 1) It may prepare the children for secondary school better as the sudden increase in the number of pupils would be reduced. 2) Two classes at each age group would in theory allow for an element of streaming, ensuring the more able kids are suitably challenged and the less able tought at a pace suited to their abilities. There were, regrettably, a higher proportion of lower ability children in my child's class than might be expected and it was undeniable that the middle and higher ability children were disadvantaged by this. Unless you have a child at key stage 1 or pre-school age, the impact may not be that great. Yr 4's and above would be long gone by the time the school is at full capacity so I wonder how many current families would actually be affected? It would be interesting to hear the views of families in the catchment area currently with pre-school children that have no connection to the school at present but for whom it would be an option. Also, for any families planning to attend the forthcoming meeting, and before he is crucified, please remember Mr Boulton is the guy charged with making the expansion work if it goes ahead - he has not to my knowledge actively sought it. I am unaware of it ever being stated as as an ambition in my time as as a parent there.
Originally posted by Margot
[font=Trebuchet MS]Everyone is entitled to their opinion, of course, but many parents of children at Abel Smith School are opposed to the proposed enlargement because the site simply has insufficient space to accommodate an additional 240 children.
Reply ID 78997
quote:Obviously the distance changes each year and number of siblings is a key factor in this. I can only comment on my sons year, as I know the data for that year (he was not a sibling). In that year there were 15 siblings and the furthest distance away that a non sibling got in was 850m. I wouldn't like to guess what that distance would move to if 2 form entry goes ahead as it would be sheer speculation.
Originally posted by Georgie
Anyone know how much this would increase the catchment area by? I understand that currently you have to live within something like 400m of the school to get a place (if you don't have a sibling already there or special needs.)
Reply ID 79030
Thanks. Although the size of the premises is far from ideal, if it means more children have access to excellent teaching then that can only be a good thing.
Reply ID 79032
quote:Margot, can you list when and where all the public meetings are, as this have not been made clear on the consultees letters, nor can we find any info on the council website - Thanks.
Attend the next Governors’ Forum and let them know your views. Also attend Council Planning meetings mentioned in our first letter of intent from the Council to show strength of feeling against this proposal NB you are not permitted to speak at these meetings unless you have registered your intention to do so beforehand; you have a very strict time limit in which to speak. MOST IMPORTANTLY YOU MUST ATTEND THE MEETING AT THE SCHOOL
Reply ID 79098
Apologies for the delay in updating you. All County Council meetings are open to the public. Interestingly, the old Wheatcroft School expansion information which went out 2009/10 is now available on the HCC web-site. The following is of interest because it goes some way to explain the consultation process I've cut and pasted it from the Wheatcroft expansion details: How will the decision be taken? Once the consultation period ends, a report will be made to the County Council’s Education Panel. This Panel is made up of key elected members from the three main political parties, and will consider the feedback from the consultation. The Panel will make a recommendation to Cabinet, which is the County Council’s decision-making body. If Cabinet decides to proceed with the proposal, the County Council will publish a statutory notice of its intention. In the four weeks following the publication of the notice, anybody is entitled to comment or object. If there are any objections to the statutory notice, the decision as to whether or not to proceed with the proposal would be made by Cabinet in the light of the objections received. If there are no objections, the director of Children, Schools & Families would be able to proceed with the proposal. This could provide a number of opportunities to voice concerns over the Abel Smith proposal: The parents information evening Abel Smith School Full Council meeting Tuesday 18 February at 10.30 am - County Hall - Council Chamber (Please note that this takes place before the Education Panel meeting & the Cabinet meeting but I think that this could be the key meeting to use to influence - show opinions of parents | carers | residents etc) Education Panel meeting Tuesday 15 March 2011 - County Hall - Committee Room B at 2.00 pm Cabinet meeting Monday 21 March 2011 - County Hall - Committee Room B at 2.00 pm Full Council meeting 29 March at 10.30 am in the Council Chamber (where you can submit a question or a petition). To ask a question at the Full Council meeting you need to submit the question to the Council at least 10 clear days prior to the meeting taking place - therefore not counting Saturday & Sunday. So in order to meet the 18 February meeting the question would need to be submitted by at least 3 Feb and for the March meeting at least by 11 March. This should be addressed to Kathryn Pettitt, Chief Legal Officer, County Hall, Pegs Lane, Hertford, SG13 8DE, or by email to [email protected] The other option is to submit a petition. You only need 100 signatories to do this and this would again be dealt with at the Full Council meetings listed above. Public questionsAt each meeting of full Council there is an opportunity for any member of the public who is a resident in or a registered local government elector of Hertfordshire to put questions to the Leader of the Council or an Executive Member about any matter over which the Council has power, or which directly affects the county. For details of forthcoming meetings follow the link entitled County Council Meetings on the right and select 'County Council'. Questions are answered orally at the meeting in the order in which they are received. At the end of each reply, the questioner may put one supplementary question to the person to whom the original question was put; who may reply orally or may undertake to reply in writing within 7 days. There can be no other debate or discussion of the question at the meeting. The period of time allocated to questions cannot exceed 30 minutes; any questions remaining after that period has elapsed are answered in writing within 7 days. Answers given orally at the meeting and those given in writing after the meeting are included in the minutes.
Reply ID 79102
Margot, thanks again for outlining the process. From attending the Governors forum at Abel Smith last night it is clear that this is not a 'done deal' contrary to some views circulating at the moment. Clearly communication from the council and school has been lacking in detail and many are rightly reserving judgement until firm plans are communicated. At the forum we were told by the 3 attending parent governors that the council's plans for Abel Smith school will be revealed in full during the meeting at the school on 10th February. So for parents who are interested in this proposal please attend this meeting to learn more about what the proposal means for Abel Smith School's current and future pupils.
Reply ID 79406
Just a reminder to all that there is a meeting tomorrow, Thursday 10th February, at 7pm, at Abel Smith School. At this meeting we understand that further details regarding the proposed plans will be available. As drb has said please atttend this meeting to learn more about what the proposal means for current and future pupils at Abel Smith School.
Reply ID 79420
If you wish to join what appears to be a collection of people with only negative comments, log on to [url]http://asparents.co.uk/[/url]. If you don't have a child at the school, hard luck. If you are looking at possible options for a pre-school child and might support an expansion you will not be able to express that view. It's kind of exclusive you see [V]
Reply ID 79458
quote:Hey Leo I am pleased you have discovered the new parents forum for Abel Smith as there is a lot of information on there – and yes, sorry, it isn’t set up as a public forum – just for parents, by parents at Abel Smith (as I’m sure lots of schools have). I am really excited that this forum has been created as it will give us a great opportunity to post on many things that we would like to share such as out of school clubs, projects, events etc. As you can see at the moment it does seem to be focused on the expansion, which is a hot topic! Hopefully there will be more comments on the enlargement of Abel Smith – as there are many different views out there. It is absolutely not exclusive to negative comments, and let’s get some positive ones on there as I know parents have 100% faith in our brilliant Head Master and that he will get the best for the school.
Originally posted by Leo Densian
If you wish to join what appears to be a collection of people with only negative comments, log on to [url]http://asparents.co.uk/[/url]. If you don't have a child at the school, hard luck. If you are looking at possible options for a pre-school child and might support an expansion you will not be able to express that view. It's kind of exclusive you see [V]
Reply ID 79460
Thanks for your patronising- its much appreciated
Reply ID 79462
quote:Harsh IMHO
Originally posted by Leo Densian
Thanks for your patronising- its much appreciated
Reply ID 79463
quote:Not really. The website in question only appeared once the expansion idea was floated. Lets say there are people with particular agendas and leave it at that.
Originally posted by Stevequote:Harsh IMHO
Originally posted by Leo Densian
Thanks for your patronising- its much appreciated
Reply ID 79465
quote:Leo, yes the website did appear after expansion was announced as a means to fill the information void created by the near complete lack of detailed information from HCC. I'm in favour of any means that allows parents to reach an informed decision on what they think about the proposal. To cast everyone on that website as holding a negative view shows how badly informed you are.
Originally posted by Leo Densianquote:Not really. The website in question only appeared once the expansion idea was floated. Lets say there are people with particular agendas and leave it at that.
Originally posted by Stevequote:Harsh IMHO
Originally posted by Leo Densian
Thanks for your patronising- its much appreciated
Reply ID 79466
So what have you filled the information void with? Rumour and speculation?
Reply ID 79469
quote:Is this rumour and speculation?... The proposed plans show a two storey building for key stage 2 children on what is currently the key stage 2 playground; It would have 8 classrooms and small ‘break out’ areas The hall and dining facilities are unchanged; There is an artificial playing surface next to the boundary with the footpath alongside Gascoyne Way and a netball court area; The off site playing field is along Mangrove Road beyond the cricket field (the old grounds of the University of Hertfordshire – football pitch); The archive building at Longmores would be demolished to provide staff parking; The current year 1 classroom would be for Kindergarten and the rest of the building for yrs 1 and 2; Nursery and reception would remain in the current building with an afternoon nursery class as well; From: http://asparents.co.uk/2011/02/10/what-we-have-learnt-from-the-information-evening/ I'm not quite sure why some people here have such a downer on the site.
Originally posted by james
So what have you filled the information void with? Rumour and speculation?
Reply ID 79470
Can someone explain to me why the expansion of the school is such a problem? Or am I missing something?
Reply ID 79471
quote:Ok Nick - as you wish. we'll agree to disagree on that. Maybe I imagined the claim made on here by Pinny on 15th Jan "I don't know a single parent of children at the school who is in favour of this expansion". I am doubtful of the motives behind the website, through the restrictions on posting limited to current parents only, when prospective parents might have valid opinions to express or questions.
Originally posted by drb To cast everyone on that website as holding a negative view shows how badly informed you are.
Reply ID 79472
People are generally against change, natural reaction in people. I worked at a school which went from one form to two form entry. I don't work there any more and it is an outstanding school now - according to Ofsted. Parents will generally fight it, The Head Teacher will have to deal with it and if it goes through, it will be the strength and commitment of the staff that will make it work or not.
Reply ID 79478
Hi James, parents are opposed to the expansion as The number of pupils will double, but the outdoor recreation areas will halve. The school hall & dining areas are all ready at breaking point with the current number of children.There are no plans to change these circumstances. There are many other issues, but these are the main problems. Abel Smith has the smallest grounds of any school in Hertford. It's not that we are all opposed to change - it just needs to be sensible and not detrimental to the children in current attendance there. There is a big question mark over the 'space per child' issue.
Reply ID 79481
I get it then, so if your kids are already at the school, you're happy and willing to deprive other families who may live closer than you do? That's very generous of you all. All schools are at breaking point because they were built long before the majority of houses/flats in the area and no extra provisions have been made for the increase in population. Stop being so bloody selfish.
Reply ID 79486
quote:Well said
Originally posted by thefair1973
I get it then, so if your kids are already at the school, you're happy and willing to deprive other families who may live closer than you do? That's very generous of you all. All schools are at breaking point because they were built long before the majority of houses/flats in the area and no extra provisions have been made for the increase in population. Stop being so bloody selfish.
Reply ID 79489
No one could disagreee that Hertford needs more school capacity, but is Abel Smith the only being considered for expansion at the moment, and if so, have any reasons been given?
Reply ID 79493
quote:If you read the PDF shared by the OP you'll find a few reasons. Here's the strongest reason "Abel Smith has been selected as it is close to the area of demand and the site is capable of expansion." A pretty clear statement with no ambiguity about it. So it looks like families have moved to the area based on league school table results, but won't be able to send their kids to the school of their choice. That won't do at all. They could lose thousands off their house prices. Also, @Olive. Staggered lunch breaks. One part of the school eats while the other plays. Then they swap over. It worked at the school I attended when I was a lad when that expanded.
Originally posted by dennismoore
No one could disagreee that Hertford needs more school capacity, but is Abel Smith the only being considered for expansion at the moment, and if so, have any reasons been given?
Reply ID 79498
quote:I think you'll find that every primary school has been considered and that the process is quite advanced beyond that stage. They haven't just pulled a school name from a hat and made a decision, they would have undertaken a thorough assessment of the requirements and the suitability of each Hertford school before progressing to this stage. Perhaps you should submit a freedom of information request to see if you can establish what has been done so far before Abel Smith was selected.
Originally posted by dennismoore
No one could disagreee that Hertford needs more school capacity, but is Abel Smith the only being considered for expansion at the moment, and if so, have any reasons been given?
Reply ID 79502
quote:I don't know how many of the facts you actually have, or if you have children/ planning on it, but there is nothing selfish about wanting the best possible school life for your children, I am not the one closing local schools (- pinehurst) down and allowing new housing projects to go up, without adequate school places being available. I am just a Mum wanting the best for her daughter. If you have a problem have a pop at the council, not us. As I have said we are not opposed to change, but if there is not enough space there is not enough space. Check the legalities of space per child re hall size, dining area and outside areas - I think these are mentioned on the abel smith website? Re staggered lunches - that actually is the first decent idea I have heard - the schools take was that we should just rush the children through a bit quicker. If you were all aware of some of the 'solutions' being put to us you would understand why we are feeling agrieved. The playing field they are proposing at Mangrove lane is the loop hole they are providing to get around the legalities of space per child, yet the school themselves has admitted reception to year 4 will not be able to use it, and it would be doubtfull that the rest of the school would use it on any regular basis, 20 min walk time plus changing time, which part of the curriculam should we give up to accomodate it? While we are at it - These same problems will apply to all future pupils - not just the ones already there. If some people choose to let their children go to a cattle market for learning then thats their choice, but it's not mine, so never mind the 'bloody selfish' - take a look at the bigger picture.
Originally posted by thefair1973
I get it then, so if your kids are already at the school, you're happy and willing to deprive other families who may live closer than you do? That's very generous of you all. All schools are at breaking point because they were built long before the majority of houses/flats in the area and no extra provisions have been made for the increase in population. Stop being so bloody selfish.
Reply ID 79511
My question is whether we are simply applying a plaster over a gaping wound. Are the plans sufficient to cope with future growth or should something more drastic and substantial be considered to cater for future and long-term growth.........a new school, for example.
Reply ID 79516
quote:Now that is something 'well said'.
Originally posted by Ewoowar
My question is whether we are simply apply a plaster over a gaping wound. Are the plans sufficient to cope with future growth or should something more drastic and substantial be considered to cater for future and long-term growth.........a new school, for example.
Reply ID 79533
quote:There are plenty of other schools in Hertford to choose from if you don't like it Olive. What do you propose they do with the kids that live within the catchment area of this school? Send them to a school in a nearby village that has capacity? That will be great for the already congested Hertford roads. I do have kids thanks, and I'm well aware of the capacity of Hertford's schools, which is exactly why I'm all for the expansion of any school that has the land to do it. the main issues you are complaining about are the overcrowding of the school hall and dining rooms. The staggered lunch suggestion by James solves this issue. Alternatively, the school purchases folding tables & chairs and they utilise the Hall as a dining area overflow. Many schools dont have the luxury of a dining hall and a gym any longer and this is the solution they use. As for the School Hall, well why don't half the school have assembly in the morning and the other half after lunch? That is, after all, the only time the whole school normally use the hall. The remainder of the time it is just used for indoor PE.
Originally posted by olive [brIf some people choose to let their children go to a cattle market for learning then thats their choice, but it's not mine, so never mind the 'bloody selfish' - take a look at the bigger picture.
Reply ID 79537
quote:
Originally posted by olivequote:I don't know how many of the facts you actually have, or if you have children/ planning on it, but there is nothing selfish about wanting the best possible school life for your children, I am not the one closing local schools (- pinehurst) down and allowing new housing projects to go up, without adequate school places being available. I am just a Mum wanting the best for her daughter. If you have a problem have a pop at the council, not us. As I have said we are not opposed to change, but if there is not enough space there is not enough space. Check the legalities of space per child re hall size, dining area and outside areas - I think these are mentioned on the abel smith website? Re staggered lunches - that actually is the first decent idea I have heard - the schools take was that we should just rush the children through a bit quicker. If you were all aware of some of the 'solutions' being put to us you would understand why we are feeling agrieved. The playing field they are proposing at Mangrove lane is the loop hole they are providing to get around the legalities of space per child, yet the school themselves has admitted reception to year 4 will not be able to use it, and it would be doubtfull that the rest of the school would use it on any regular basis, 20 min walk time plus changing time, which part of the curriculam should we give up to accomodate it? While we are at it - These same problems will apply to all future pupils - not just the ones already there. If some people choose to let their children go to a cattle market for learning then thats their choice, but it's not mine, so never mind the 'bloody selfish' - take a look at the bigger picture.
Originally posted by thefair1973
I get it then, so if your kids are already at the school, you're happy and willing to deprive other families who may live closer than you do? That's very generous of you all. All schools are at breaking point because they were built long before the majority of houses/flats in the area and no extra provisions have been made for the increase in population. Stop being so bloody selfish.
Reply ID 79543
quote:Have you read any of the other comments? Abel Smith is at capacity. Abel Smith does not have the land to do it. Have you witnessed the traffic congestion at Abel Smith already? It is not pretty. Talk to the poor people that actually live on that road and can't park there. (And no I'm not one of the Mums badly parking a 4x4 with 1 child in it. I walk.) The school hall is utalised daily for all manner of things - not just assembly and PE. If you are wanting to send your children there they will face the same problems, that is why we are against it, why don't you do something constructive and canvass for a new school. We should all be insisting that the council think all this through more thouraghly before allowing new housing to go up. If you stop and think about it surely we should all be on the same side, I'm sure you just want the best for your children just like the rest of us. An important point is that the other schools are also oversubscribed. It is a matter of a few years before Abel Smith will be over subscribed even with double entry. Time to build a new school methinks. (There's a free plot of land just up Mangrove Road aleady owned by the council [;)])
There are plenty of other schools in Hertford to choose from if you don't like it Olive. What do you propose they do with the kids that live within the catchment area of this school? Send them to a school in a nearby village that has capacity? That will be great for the already congested Hertford roads. I do have kids thanks, and I'm well aware of the capacity of Hertford's schools, which is exactly why I'm all for the expansion of any school that has the land to do it. the main issues you are complaining about are the overcrowding of the school hall and dining rooms. The staggered lunch suggestion by James solves this issue. Alternatively, the school purchases folding tables & chairs and they utilise the Hall as a dining area overflow. Many schools dont have the luxury of a dining hall and a gym any longer and this is the solution they use. As for the School Hall, well why don't half the school have assembly in the morning and the other half after lunch? That is, after all, the only time the whole school normally use the hall. The remainder of the time it is just used for indoor PE.
Reply ID 79544
quote:I think it will continue to oversubscribed - maybe the case even if its size was increased 3-fold. The point to all this is cost and that HCC's expansion proposal has been turned away by other schools in Hertford so that it is now applying a sub-optimal sticking plaster over the problem they should have foreseen and managed more effectively. A new school is a 'high cost' option whereas expansion of Abel Smith is 'medium cost'. Given the error in their forecasts who nows if expansion will be actually required or if in a few years time they'll be closing more schools. All seems a bit too hurried and poorly thoughtout for my liking. And finally people can have their say on the proposal at the HCC website [url]http://www.hertsdirect.org/havesay/consultation/crtcnslt/consultations/schoolenl/[/url] by 21st Feb. Nick
An important point is that the other schools are also oversubscribed. It is a matter of a few years before Abel Smith will be over subscribed even with double entry. Time to build a new school methinks. (There's a free plot of land just up Mangrove Road aleady owned by the council [;)])
Reply ID 79545
Nice to have a constructive input that doesn't just blast us concerned folk for being 'bloody selfish'. Thanks drb
quote:
Originally posted by drbquote:I think it will continue to oversubscribed - maybe the case even if its size was increased 3-fold. The point to all this is cost and that HCC's expansion proposal has been turned away by other schools in Hertford so that it is now applying a sub-optimal sticking plaster over the problem they should have foreseen and managed more effectively. A new school is a 'high cost' option whereas expansion of Abel Smith is 'medium cost'. Given the error in their forecasts who nows if expansion will be actually required or if in a few years time they'll be closing more schools. All seems a bit too hurried and poorly thoughtout for my liking. And finally people can have their say on the proposal at the HCC website [url]http://www.hertsdirect.org/havesay/consultation/crtcnslt/consultations/schoolenl/[/url] by 21st Feb. Nick
An important point is that the other schools are also oversubscribed. It is a matter of a few years before Abel Smith will be over subscribed even with double entry. Time to build a new school methinks. (There's a free plot of land just up Mangrove Road aleady owned by the council [;)])
Reply ID 79546
By the way, just for transparency, Olive and Publandlord are different people but of the same opinion (husband and wife).
Reply ID 79547
quote:I'm afraid labelling those holding an 'opposing' view as selfish and NIMBYS is a common tactic, with personal slurs taking the place of rationale discussion. Sad but telling. We'll just have to live with the label. Comes down to a matter perspective; what's seen as selfish by some is seen by others as holding those in authority to explain and account in a transparent manner for a proposal that affects a wide number of stakeholders. Que sera, sera.
Originally posted by olive
Nice to have a constructive input that doesn't just blast us concerned folk for being 'bloody selfish'. Thanks drb[quote]Originally posted by drb
Reply ID 79593
Firstly - For those of you who can't make it to the school, there is a petition at The Old Barge. We obviously would encourage as many people to sign as possible. Secondly - My apologies for my emotions running away with me, I seem to just be argueing instead of engaging in a healthy and constructive debate. Hopefully those of us on opposing sides of the fence can agree to disagree. I really do think when it comes down to it that we are all on the same side and just want the best for our childrens future![:D]
Reply ID 79605
apologies also. it doesnt even affect me as I no longer live in Hertford. We moved out at the end of 2010 before the kids reached school age, because it's such a lottery in Hertford and we weren't prepared to take that chance.
Reply ID 79615
I'm still of the opinion that two forms per year group will allow for streaming to ability. When your child starts school you don't know what he/she will end up with for classmates. In my son's case he was without doubt in the top 3 ability-wise and there were a higher than expected number of kids in his class that needed extra help. IMO it was doubtful regarding one child as to whether a 'conventional' school was really the right place to be. I would happily have traded some playground/field space for the opportunity of him being with children of similar ability to be challenged more.
Reply ID 79625
Putting aside, just for a moment, the question of the rights or wrongs of expanding Abel Smith, what about when these additional children reach the age of 11 and require secondary education? We already know that in 2015 the school leaving age will extend to age 18 years which, together with an increasing population from additional housing developments, will place a continuing increase in demand on our comprehensive schools too with additional classroom space being required for both these additional entry-forms and the extended sixth-forms. Rather than a "make do for now" fix through placing pre-fab boxes onto school playgrounds, or patching up crapply built 20th C. secondary schools, does anyone know what the long term plan is for our local educational requirements and does it allow for new school building that will incorporate all ages? Are our local planners capable of thinking holistically and strategically for the long term? For £203k CEO salaries and a brand concept of "County of Opportunity" they really ought to be. IMHO, the proposed changes to Abel Smith appear to be ill conceived, short-term, opportunistic (I understand that the AS Governors naively agreed to the principle of expansion where other schools declined) and a cheapest cost fix. This type of management will let all of our children down, including mine who don't attend this school.
Reply ID 79635
Personally I cannot understand the need to expand the school as it doesn't have a lot of land to play with. In Bishop's Stortford, there are currently plans to build a whole new community JMI school and housing development, and another secondary school to cater for the demand. Woody is right. The wider picture needs to be looked at. IMHO we need at least two more schools in the area - one primary (Hertford) and one secondary (mixed - Hertford/Ware).
Reply ID 79639
Surely the expansion of Abel Smith will add to the vibrancy of the school and bolster the wider sevices it offers such as the after school club etc...demand for places is an inevitable result of Hertford growing....(which is a good thing as this keeps our local community alive and thriving, when many other smaller town high streets are slowly contracting)....
Reply ID 80018
The expanion is not going ahead. The salient points from the latest Parent Mail
quote:
· It has become clear as the scheme design has evolved and further more detailed survey work has been conducted that there is no technical solution available on this school site for a two storey 8 classroom block which would be acceptable in town planning terms at this stage. · Panel is asked to consider the recommendation that the County Council does not proceed to the publication of statutory notices at this stage and instead, seeks a temporary solution elsewhere in the town for 2012/13 pending further work into a long term solution for the town which offers places where they are needed to meet demand and take account of the District Council’s longer term housing targets.
Reply ID 80019
The old police station should have been used to expand / build new school. The council is short sited / unfit for purpose. 'Top' 'Executives' paying themselves more than the Prime Minister. Utter disgrace. All our council tax goes to paying their pensions.
Reply ID 80021
quote:I'm amazed no one has brought this up, Wheatcroft is adjacent to the biggest potential building site in Hertford, this is the obvious, though in all likelihood expensive, solution to the lack of primary school places in Hertford.
The old police station should have been used to expand / build new school.
Reply ID 80023
That's the problem Jackanapes. It's obvious to everyone except the clangers that 'work' for the council.
Reply ID 80026
The old police station land has never been owned by the county council as far as I know.
Reply ID 80027
quote:That's the problem. I'll ignore the rest of the post, even though it is rather funny.
Originally posted by aubend
The council is short sited
Reply ID 80028
quote:I'm not sure if you meant what you wrote but I agree........do they have a site available for a new school?
Originally posted by aubend
The council is short sited.....
Reply ID 80029
quote:I found the joke first; a great play on words. I think Aubend was pointing out, in a spirit of fairness and balance, that, despite their best efforts, the council was unable to find an alternative to the Abel Smith project because of a lack of suitable sites.
Originally posted by Ewoowarquote:I'm not sure if you meant what you wrote but I agree........do they have a site available for a new school?
Originally posted by aubend
The council is short sited.....
Reply ID 80030
I received a letter today from Abel Smith headmaster Mr Boulton, essentialy saying that 'the proposed expansion of Abel Smith WILL NOT go ahead'. Well done to all the Mums, Dads and concerned people who stood up to be counted.
quote:
Originally posted by Ewoowarquote:I'm not sure if you meant what you wrote but I agree........do they have a site available for a new school?
Originally posted by aubend
The council is short sited.....
Reply ID 80054
Does anyone know where the official announcement about this is on the web as I can't find it. I am interested to know why the proposals have been rejected.
Reply ID 80106
There has been no official announcement as yet. The formal meeting isn't until the 21st March. Mr Boulton, the head teacher has perhaps gone out on a bit of a limb and sent a letter home to parents claiming it wont go ahead. The reasons are something to do with them not being allowed to put up the proposed 2 storey building, but no one can find out why not! The parents that are more actively involved in stopping the expansion are still keeping the pressure on in case there is another change of heart. [:)]
Reply ID 80141
See today's Mercury - now proposed that Morgan's expands ... not leaving much time for a consultation programme with parents there. http://www.hertfordshiremercury.co.uk/Hertfordshire/Delight-as-Hertford-school-growth-put-on-hold.htm