Topic ID 3624
There are laws on the level of noise you can generate in your home to prevent unsociable noise pollution for your neighbours, but is there any law governing flights from private pilots at Panshanger? I'm getting fed up of some inconsiderate person constantly flying over my house every night beyond 9pm, and even now he's doing aerobatics at 9:40pm. He's woken my 8-month old daughter up 4 times this week. Is there anyone you can complai to in order to get it stopped? Otherwise I'm gonna go down there and wait for him!!!
Reply ID 52920
Standard Air Law applies - they should be a minimum of 500 ft over any vessel, vehicle, building or structure and minimum 1500 ft over a built up area (unless taking off or landing). If higher than 1500 ft I don't think they are contravening any regulations. You could give them a call: [url]http://www.northlondonflyingschool.com/Contacts/Contacts.htm[/url]
Reply ID 52922
Get his registration if possible - it will start "G-" (binoculars may help) . Then complain to Panshangar as suggested above.
Reply ID 52924
Cheers all. I may just follow him home and rev my car outside his house for a few hours
Reply ID 52925
quote:Little red plane, sounds like a big mosquito? Very irritating when you're sat in the garden trying to relax. I don't generally mind the planes from panshanger, but I think the aerobatics make this guy more noticeable, noise-wise.
Originally posted by thefair1973
some inconsiderate person constantly flying over my house every night beyond 9pm, and even now he's doing aerobatics at 9:40pm.
Reply ID 52927
Is this it? [img]http://www.yakuk.com/img/EA_FRs.jpg[/img] http://www.yakuk.com/img/EA_FRs.jpg[/img] If so, this was discussed last year... http://www.yakuk.com/img/EA_FRs.jpg[/img]
Reply ID 52941
that's the bugger!!
Reply ID 52942
Give him a call on 01767 651 156
Reply ID 52948
quote:[}:)][B)][:D]
Originally posted by Steve
Give him a call on 01767 651 156
Reply ID 52951
quote:The number is on his website, plus his mobile as well (scroll down, it's under the contact form) http://www.yakuk.com/contact-airdisplays.asp
Originally posted by shuntquote:[}:)][B)][:D]
Originally posted by Steve
Give him a call on 01767 651 156
Reply ID 52952
Never heard him before... but he is out tonight. Normally the planes from panshanger dont bother me as they are normally during the day.
Reply ID 53001
Up again tonight - unfortunately by the time I eventually got someone off the phone he was on his way so I never got to see it!
Reply ID 53005
quote:I saw him too .. Should he be doing these stunts over a built-up area?
Originally posted by Leo Densian
Up again tonight - unfortunately by the time I eventually got someone off the phone he was on his way so I never got to see it!
Reply ID 53015
Are you absolutely sure that is Mark Jeffries? If he's based at an airfield in Bedfordshire, it seems a bit out of his way to be regularly practising his aerobatics near Hertford?
Reply ID 53016
The aircraft yesterday evening was a biplane, so it's not the same one as in the photo.
Reply ID 53019
quote:Don't see what it's sexuality has to do with it [B)]
Originally posted by Steve
The aircraft yesterday evening was a biplane, so it's not the same one as in the photo.
Reply ID 53024
quote:As long as its 1500ft above ground level its OK. In theory CAA permission could be granted for lower level - for an airshow etc.
Originally posted by azzzaquote:I saw him too .. Should he be doing these stunts over a built-up area?
Originally posted by Leo Densian
Up again tonight - unfortunately by the time I eventually got someone off the phone he was on his way so I never got to see it!
Reply ID 53025
Here is the Aeronautical Information Publication (AIP) for Panshanger: http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/ad/EGLG/EG_AD_2_EGLG_en.pdf The traffic zone (ATZ) is a 2nm circle from the centre point of the runway. There is one noise abatement procedure in place when departing from runway 29. Rule 5 is the only thing that matters and given the ATZ is in ClassG airspace (untill 2500ft) the pilots can, legally, pretty much do what they like. (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/ad/EGLG/EG_AD_2_EGLG_en.pdf In general, pilots like to keep friendly with their neighbours, and take complaints seriously. There are more constructive ways of raising this issue with the airfield than revving car engines outside pilots' homes or naming and shaming, without proof, potentially innocent people on public forums.
Reply ID 53027
quote:It changed to 1000 ft minimum flying over a built-up area a year or two ago, by the way [:D] I think this was to reduced the risk of collisions as the amount of vertical airspace between the minimum height and the controlled airspace above was a bit thin!
Originally posted by Leo Densian
Standard Air Law applies - they should be a minimum of 500 ft over any vessel, vehicle, building or structure and minimum 1500 ft over a built up area (unless taking off or landing). If higher than 1500 ft I don't think they are contravening any regulations.
Reply ID 53028
quote:The final part of the first document is marked, "intentionally blank". Having read said document I find myself to be unintentionally blank.
Originally posted by SallyB
Here is the Aeronautical Information Publication (AIP) for Panshanger: http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/ad/EGLG/EG_AD_2_EGLG_en.pdf The traffic zone (ATZ) is a 2nm circle from the centre point of the runway. There is one noise abatement procedure in place when departing from runway 29. Rule 5 is the only thing that matters and given the ATZ is in ClassG airspace (untill 2500ft) the pilots can, legally, pretty much do what they like. (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/ad/EGLG/EG_AD_2_EGLG_en.pdf In general, pilots like to keep friendly with their neighbours, and take complaints seriously. There are more constructive ways of raising this issue with the airfield than revving car engines outside pilots' homes or naming and shaming, without proof, potentially innocent people on public forums.
Reply ID 53030
quote:I obviously studied for my license before you then! [:I]
Originally posted by SallyBquote:It changed to 1000 ft minimum flying over a built-up area a year or two ago, by the way [:D] I think this was to reduced the risk of collisions as the amount of vertical airspace between the minimum height and the controlled airspace above was a bit thin!
Originally posted by Leo Densian
Standard Air Law applies - they should be a minimum of 500 ft over any vessel, vehicle, building or structure and minimum 1500 ft over a built up area (unless taking off or landing). If higher than 1500 ft I don't think they are contravening any regulations.
Reply ID 53032
quote:Most likely [:D] Keep up, my dear, keep up :) Or don't you fly any more? [;)]
Originally posted by Leo Densian I obviously studied for my license before you then! [:I]
Reply ID 53033
quote:Not as often as I'd like to!
Originally posted by SallyBquote:Most likely [:D] Keep up, my dear, keep up :) Or don't you fly any more? [;)]
Originally posted by Leo Densian I obviously studied for my license before you then! [:I]
Reply ID 53043
I've experienced the noise from this guy's plane in my garden. He's out most evenings during the summer for about an hour doing loop the loops & hurtling towards the ground before pulling up at the last second. When you can see him, it's quite entertaining & if it was once a week, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I sent an email to Panshanger last Tuesday to tell them I didn't mind this guy doing stunts over Sele Farm once a week, but could he go somewhere else and do them on the other six. I've had no reply, so maybe he doesn't fly out of Panshanger after all. Maybe "thefair1973" should put a big sign up in her garden in four foot high letters telling him to "buzz off", or words to that effect!
Reply ID 53375
I too have been treated to the "free Air display " c/o panshanger aerodrome every decent evening this summer and am thoroughly fed up with the bloody noise... at 9.30 in the evening!! I did e.mail the airschool over there and got a reply which in so many words said "shut up, get lost and i dont care what you think" So contacted CAA and got much more help. Apparently panshanger have been the cause of various complaints for a while now and they were not suprised that i didnt have any luck in contacting them. Advised to study the environmental information part of the CAA web site... in particular points 2,8 and 12. If it really does appear that a law is being breached then the CAA will act .. but lots of accurate evidence is required consisting of pics, vids, eyewitness, etc. Very longwinded. They suggested getting some decent bins and identifying the plane in question with its number " G..." Then go onto the CAA website and it will be listed along with pilot details and phone numbers. Often a letter, call or e.mail to the pilot expressing concern will cause enough of a stir to make the pilot re-think his/her flight plans... all want to stay friends really. So those plane numbers are the key. .Any ideas?
quote:
Originally posted by thefair1973
There are laws on the level of noise you can generate in your home to prevent unsociable noise pollution for your neighbours, but is there any law governing flights from private pilots at Panshanger? I'm getting fed up of some inconsiderate person constantly flying over my house every night beyond 9pm, and even now he's doing aerobatics at 9:40pm. He's woken my 8-month old daughter up 4 times this week. Is there anyone you can complai to in order to get it stopped? Otherwise I'm gonna go down there and wait for him!!!
Reply ID 53377
Go to [url]http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1[/url] to get the plane owner details - it might not be the actual pilot though.
Reply ID 53380
quote:This must be a story for the Mercury to cover ... much more realistic than imaginary potato shaped meteroites falling from the sky?
Originally posted by tellithowitis
I too have been treated to the "free Air display " c/o panshanger aerodrome every decent evening this summer and am thoroughly fed up with the bloody noise... at 9.30 in the evening!! I did e.mail the airschool over there and got a reply which in so many words said "shut up, get lost and i dont care what you think" So contacted CAA and got much more help. Apparently panshanger have been the cause of various complaints for a while now and they were not suprised that i didnt have any luck in contacting them. Advised to study the environmental information part of the CAA web site... in particular points 2,8 and 12. If it really does appear that a law is being breached then the CAA will act .. but lots of accurate evidence is required consisting of pics, vids, eyewitness, etc. Very longwinded. They suggested getting some decent bins and identifying the plane in question with its number " G..." Then go onto the CAA website and it will be listed along with pilot details and phone numbers. Often a letter, call or e.mail to the pilot expressing concern will cause enough of a stir to make the pilot re-think his/her flight plans... all want to stay friends really. So those plane numbers are the key. .Any ideas?quote:
Originally posted by thefair1973
There are laws on the level of noise you can generate in your home to prevent unsociable noise pollution for your neighbours, but is there any law governing flights from private pilots at Panshanger? I'm getting fed up of some inconsiderate person constantly flying over my house every night beyond 9pm, and even now he's doing aerobatics at 9:40pm. He's woken my 8-month old daughter up 4 times this week. Is there anyone you can complai to in order to get it stopped? Otherwise I'm gonna go down there and wait for him!!!
Reply ID 53646
About a week after I complained to Panshanger aerodrome,I got a reply saying they would have a word with the plane's pilot. Unless I'm mistaken, the frequency of this guy's flights over Sele Farm has definitely reduced - I even saw him doing his stunts over the derelict West End Farm near Bramfield last week - I'm glad that someone else is getting a turn!
Reply ID 55157
Has anyone up in Sele Farm or Hertingfordbury noticed "old buzz boy" is back. He was out most of yesterday evening & I just heard him hurtling to the ground over the field by Bentley Road about 5 minutes ago. I've just sent off another email to complain, but it will probably be ignored if it's just from me. If the noise bothers you too, send an email to this address; [email protected] On their website, http://www.northlondonflyingschool.com, their mission statement reads, "To most of us the sky is the limit. To those who love aviation, the sky is home. " It's a shame they don't fly their noisy planes over their own homes once in a while! Rant over & out.
Reply ID 55350
Success - Panshanger Airfield have agreed with me that this pilot should not be practicing his aerobatic stunts over my back garden. In fact he should only be practicing within a square mile of the airfield. That's Marden Hill to the North, Holly Grove Road to the East, the A414 roundabout to the South & the edge of Panshanger Estate to the West. If this guy is making your life a misery too, please complain directly to the airfield [email protected]
Reply ID 55365
quote:Is that in their words? It doesn't make any sense to me...
Originally posted by Muddy
In fact he should only be practicing within a square mile of the airfield. That's Marden Hill to the North, Holly Grove Road to the East, the A414 roundabout to the South & the edge of Panshanger Estate to the West.
Reply ID 55366
quote:Shouldn't that be a CUBIC[:D] mile?
Originally posted by Muddy
In fact he should only be practicing within a square mile of the airfield. That's Marden Hill to the North, Holly Grove Road to the East, the A414 roundabout to the South & the edge of Panshanger Estate to the West.
Reply ID 55384
SallyB - Panshanger sent me a map depicting the range of the flights, but I couldn't copy & paste it, so that's why I described the geographical boundaries & Steve, I bow to your superior knowledge it could be a cubic, not a square mile. I'd take 100 lines, but you'd probably criticise my spelling!
Reply ID 55396
Muddy, it still doesn't make sense that his aerobatics are 'limited' to a mile (cubic or otherwise) of the airfield. I'll have a word next time I'm there, which will probably be Saturday, and ask them to clarify.
Reply ID 55428
They obviously didn't clarify too well because they were at it again on Saturday and I know I'm more than a mile from the airfield in any direction they see fit to measure it.
Reply ID 55429
Seems Panshanger have attracted a number of negative comments this year... http://ukga.com/airfield/panshanger/reviews
Reply ID 62937
The pilot is almost certainly called Heim...He's an Israeli and runs Panshangar Airfield. Pretty harmless sort of character but clearly does like to show off. Obviously he wouldn't have an audience if he did his tricks over the North Sea, but, you never know he may just land on an errant pirate frigate ? What's all the fuss about anyhow.? You're all getting a free air-show sitting in your own back gardens ! If it interrupts East Enders or even worse, Britain's Got Talent.....TOUGH LUCK !
Reply ID 62944
quote:The noise, or didn't you read any of the other threads?
Originally posted by tiger.1000 What's all the fuss about anyhow.?
Reply ID 62947
Nice noise......
Reply ID 62953
quote:[?] Did you miss the smiley humour tag?
Originally posted by tiger.1000
The pilot is almost certainly called Heim...He's an Israeli and runs Panshangar Airfield. Pretty harmless sort of character but clearly does like to show off. Obviously he wouldn't have an audience if he did his tricks over the North Sea, but, you never know he may just land on an errant pirate frigate ? What's all the fuss about anyhow.? You're all getting a free air-show sitting in your own back gardens ! If it interrupts East Enders or even worse, Britain's Got Talent.....TOUGH LUCK !
Reply ID 62986
Reply ID 62989
quote:Please post as new topic [:)]
Originally posted by Harry Palmer
Interesting article http://www.whtimes.co.uk/content/whtimes/news/story.aspx?brand=WHTOnline&category=News&tBrand=HertsCambsOnline&tCategory=newslatestWHT&itemid=WEED27%20Apr%202009%2017%3A52%3A30%3A120
Reply ID 64890
I live in Waterford and was woken up last night at 3am by a small plane buzzing around. Anyone else?
Reply ID 65021
Molewood Road terrorised by mad dive-bomber, Friday evening!
Reply ID 65030
quote:Here it over Sele Farm too. Not good when you are putting cgildren to bed.
Originally posted by Paul
Molewood Road terrorised by mad dive-bomber, Friday evening!
Reply ID 65035
quote:Two of these were out again over Chapmore End early yesterday evening. Couldn't find my electronic fly swatter quick enough. [:D]
Originally posted by Steve
Is this it? [img]http://www.yakuk.com/img/EA_FRs.jpg[/img] http://www.yakuk.com/img/EA_FRs.jpg[/img] If so, this was discussed last year... http://www.yakuk.com/img/EA_FRs.jpg[/img]
Reply ID 65037
Loving it. Sitting on the top lawn watching a free show. What's more, the action has been punctuated by the odd Spitfire recently, low level and flying flat out.
Reply ID 65047
I don't think the important issues here are about either the noise or how entertaining it is/isn't. As stated before the important issues are surely the safety of performing such stunts over built up areas. He only has to fail once at pulling out of a dive and it could result in multiple deaths. If he were to kill himself then that's his prerogative but he shouldn't put others at risk just because he likes to show off. A few Fridays ago during an afternoon storm and heavy rain he was STILL performing such stunts. The cloud base was low and he couldn't be seen from the ground which equally means he had less sense of perspective and was (in my opinion) bloody stupid for carrying out such acts. I believe Sally B said that to perform stunts over a built up area was a big license violation, if so, does anyone known what body/organisation it should be reported to?
Reply ID 65048
quote:Viewed from Chapmore End, I'd say it's highly unlikely that the pilot is directly over a built up area. Likewise, the show viewed from my own garden, I'd estimate to be somewhere between Bramfield and Goldings. This is the same performance I could see from Bengeo Street last year and in the same place, though it looks very different from this angle. I've never seen any of these shows directly above me. The impression of distance and height can be deceptive from the ground. If you can watch it comfortably without lying on your back and can't read the numbers on the wings, it's happening at least a mile away.
Originally posted by Forbes
I don't think the important issues here are about either the noise or how entertaining it is/isn't. As stated before the important issues are surely the safety of performing such stunts over built up areas. He only has to fail once at pulling out of a dive and it could result in multiple deaths. If he were to kill himself then that's his prerogative but he shouldn't put others at risk just because he likes to show off. A few Fridays ago during an afternoon storm and heavy rain he was STILL performing such stunts. The cloud base was low and he couldn't be seen from the ground which equally means he had less sense of perspective and was (in my opinion) bloody stupid for carrying out such acts. I believe Sally B said that to perform stunts over a built up area was a big license violation, if so, does anyone known what body/organisation it should be reported to?
Reply ID 65051
quote:Shunt. Why do you continue to post information that suggests that we are all completely stupid? [:(]
Originally posted by shuntquote:Viewed from Chapmore End, I'd say it's highly unlikely that the pilot is directly over a built up area. Likewise, the show viewed from my own garden, I'd estimate to be somewhere between Bramfield and Goldings. This is the same performance I could see from Bengeo Street last year and in the same place, though it looks very different from this angle. I've never seen any of these shows directly above me. The impression of distance and height can be deceptive from the ground. If you can watch it comfortably without lying on your back and can't read the numbers on the wings, it's happening at least a mile away.
Originally posted by Forbes
I don't think the important issues here are about either the noise or how entertaining it is/isn't. As stated before the important issues are surely the safety of performing such stunts over built up areas. He only has to fail once at pulling out of a dive and it could result in multiple deaths. If he were to kill himself then that's his prerogative but he shouldn't put others at risk just because he likes to show off. A few Fridays ago during an afternoon storm and heavy rain he was STILL performing such stunts. The cloud base was low and he couldn't be seen from the ground which equally means he had less sense of perspective and was (in my opinion) bloody stupid for carrying out such acts. I believe Sally B said that to perform stunts over a built up area was a big license violation, if so, does anyone known what body/organisation it should be reported to?
Reply ID 65053
At times shunt he does drift very close if not directly over built up areas. I know distance and height can be deceiving but I've also watched him from several areas and he is often over the NW corner of Hertford. Also I think a plane pulling out of a dive could cover a mile or more quite easily so a drop zone of several miles would be needed to ensure safety.
Reply ID 65056
quote:Not being a pilot myself, I couldn't say. The multi-talented Sally B is your girl for the answer to that one. I'd guess the risk to life is fairly low compared to driving to the Co-op though, even though the results of an accident would be considerably more spectacular and newsworthy. My comments are based on observion from possibly the most NW house in Hertford. He's considerably west of me.
Originally posted by Forbes
At times shunt he does drift very close if not directly over built up areas. I know distance and height can be deceiving but I've also watched him from several areas and he is often over the NW corner of Hertford. Also I think a plane pulling out of a dive could cover a mile or more quite easily so a drop zone of several miles would be needed to ensure safety.
Reply ID 65060
Whilst not being totally opposed to this chap's antics, you will find that he comes a lot closer to Hertford than you suggest. I was working down at Hertingfordbury Park this afternoon and he flew right over the football ground, pulling a couple of manoeuvres in the process, before heading off towards the north-west.
Reply ID 65077
It drove me mad the noise on Friday evening. In Bengeo the wind direction meant that I couldn't hear myself think, it sounded like the plane was in my garden.. Why oh why on a Friday at 7pm????? I got the feeling he's doing it cos he can! Drama Queen's father was in RAF.. and he said it'll be really difficult to catch his number on his plane to report his antics to CAA, but you have to do it to get a complaint lodged. He wasn't impressed by the time of day and the noise factor. He felt it was dangerously over houses too and we had a clear view of him. I have no trouble with them practicing and getting flying hours up, but two of them??!!!! I think they read the Forum posts and decided to stick two fingers up.. [}:)]
Reply ID 65103
Yes I think you may be right about that DQ, so if you good old boys are reading this please give us a wave when you are diving towards our homes old chap won't you? and we will wave back to you. It's unheard of in these parts you know, Sky rage. Oh and be very careful over Sele Farm for the snipers.
Reply ID 65104
I can start an online petition against the pilot, that you can sign, if you want? To submit to the local council. P
Reply ID 65107
I don't have a problem with them practicing, they just do it at inappropriate times of day and two of them??!!!! I find it annoying when you cannot hear your TV, music or sit in your backgarden without feeling like a Messhersmitdt is dive-bombing you... As for the Sele Farm Snipers.. !!!
Reply ID 65112
It's difficult to watch rich folks having fun with their expensive hobby, eh? If you are a SE based pilot, there must be few places for this kind of activity without being in sight and earshot of somebody's dwelling. Should we add it to the vast list of activities which are already banned? As for times of day, what is appropriate, or indeed available? Sunday? Early mornings? Weekdays only? When is it appropriate to use a lawnmower or hedgetrimmer, which can be even more of a disturbance, or hold a party, or ring church bells? plenty of that going on. Should it all be banned? Presumably these pilots work to afford to fly when they can, early evening and weekends, in daylight hours.
Reply ID 65116
quote:Why the local council? And which one?
Originally posted by Paul
I can start an online petition against the pilot, that you can sign, if you want? To submit to the local council. P
Reply ID 65117
They don't have a consistency of times at all. We can go literally weeks and then every night of the week and then nothing for weeks again. Its not about "hating a rich man's hobby".. I have a "rich man's hobby" myself so that isn't the point. But I did and do find it interesting that as soon as this thread was up and running again.. along come Two planes making so much noise not just for an hour, but hours on end...... Guess they'll come over tonight now cos I've upset them.. ! Its about balance and whilst they want to do their hobby/business, I have a right to enjoy my hobbies/business family without the noise too... it cuts both ways Mr Shunt. People moan about Stanstead and Luton airport noise, well this is worse and much more intrusive..
Reply ID 65120
quote:I'm sure they are not tormenting you DQ.[:)] Probably just taking advantage of good flying conditions. I've never really understood the airport moans myself. Unless one is never going to fly, it seems a bit hypocritical to moan.
Originally posted by Drama Queen
They don't have a consistency of times at all. We can go literally weeks and then every night of the week and then nothing for weeks again. Its not about "hating a rich man's hobby".. I have a "rich man's hobby" myself so that isn't the point. But I did and do find it interesting that as soon as this thread was up and running again.. along come Two planes making so much noise not just for an hour, but hours on end...... Guess they'll come over tonight now cos I've upset them.. ! Its about balance and whilst they want to do their hobby/business, I have a right to enjoy my hobbies/business family without the noise too... it cuts both ways Mr Shunt. People moan about Stanstead and Luton airport noise, well this is worse and much more intrusive..
Reply ID 65123
It's simple really! If the pilots done as they are suppose too (keep away from built up areas) then everyone would be happy. No risk to us ground dwellers and minimal noise, if any. It all boils down (it would seem) to one or two pilots flouting the regulations. I don't think anyone wants to spoil anyone's fun but rules are there for a reason!!!!
Reply ID 65126
quote:Isn't that a bit like saying you can't complain about noisy pubs if you go out drinking? [}:)]
Originally posted by shunt
I've never really understood the airport moans myself. Unless one is never going to fly, it seems a bit hypocritical to moan.
Reply ID 65127
quote:I refer to my previous posts. Are you absolutely sure these planes are directly overhead, or at least, inside the limit set? I'm not so sure they are, (partly because I don't know what the limit is[B)]). It is really hard to judge height or horizontal position without aviaton experience and particularly when an aircraft is not in straight, level flight. Could you go to a spot directly below where they were? I'm not sure I could get within a mile or within 500 feet vertically. If you can and are that sure, you could report the violation of whatever rules you are aware of.
Originally posted by Forbes
It's simple really! If the pilots done as they are suppose too (keep away from built up areas) then everyone would be happy. No risk to us ground dwellers and minimal noise, if any. It all boils down (it would seem) to one or two pilots flouting the regulations. I don't think anyone wants to spoil anyone's fun but rules are there for a reason!!!!
Reply ID 65128
quote:[:D] Not if you are partially responsible for making the noise.[;)]
Originally posted by Stevequote:Isn't that a bit like saying you can't complain about noisy pubs if you go out drinking? [}:)]
Originally posted by shunt
I've never really understood the airport moans myself. Unless one is never going to fly, it seems a bit hypocritical to moan.
Reply ID 65129
Most on here seem to agree that they do, at least in part, carry out manoeuvres over built up areas. Drama Queens father (ex RAF, so should be a good judge) seems to agree also!
quote:
Drama Queen's father was in RAF.. and he said it'll be really difficult to catch his number on his plane to report his antics to CAA, but you have to do it to get a complaint lodged. He wasn't impressed by the time of day and the noise factor. He felt it was dangerously over houses too and we had a clear view of him.
Reply ID 65130
To quote Steve from another thread: From The Directorate of Airspace Policy, Environmental Information Sheet - Number 8 "The Rules of the Air Regulations (RoA) states that an aircraft shall not carry out any aerobatic manoeuvre over the congested area of any city, town or settlement. Away from congested areas, the RoA restrict aerobatic flying in the same way as any other aircraft activity; ie not within 500 feet of any person, vessel, vehicle or structure. (Note: this is a minimum distance, not a minimum height)" It goes on "The Civil Aviation Authority's General Aviation Safety Sense leaflet (GASIL 9A) regarding aerobatics advises novice pilots that all manoeuvres should be completed by 3000 feet above ground level"[/i]
Reply ID 65138
quote:If its the guy I think it is he is no novice - 9 times British champion to be precise! Can't help smiling at this thread - having been working in Feltham today which is on the final approach into Heathrow, the Jumbo's are literally casting shadows as they go over because they are that low.
Originally posted by Forbes It goes on "The Civil Aviation Authority's General Aviation Safety Sense leaflet (GASIL 9A) regarding aerobatics advises novice pilots that all manoeuvres should be completed by 3000 feet above ground level"[/b][/i]
Reply ID 65141
quote:You're a bit stuffed as far as any complaint to them is concerned then.
Originally posted by Forbes
To quote Steve from another thread: From The Directorate of Airspace Policy, Environmental Information Sheet - Number 8 "The Rules of the Air Regulations (RoA) states that an aircraft shall not carry out any aerobatic manoeuvre over the congested area of any city, town or settlement. Away from congested areas, the RoA restrict aerobatic flying in the same way as any other aircraft activity; ie not within 500 feet of any person, vessel, vehicle or structure. (Note: this is a minimum distance, not a minimum height)" It goes on "The Civil Aviation Authority's General Aviation Safety Sense leaflet (GASIL 9A) regarding aerobatics advises novice pilots that all manoeuvres should be completed by 3000 feet above ground level"[/i]
Reply ID 65144
quote:[?]
You're a bit stuffed as far as any complaint to them is concerned then.
Reply ID 65145
quote:Well not within 500ft, not an inexperienced pilot, so there would have to be a stunt which was classified as aerobatic directly above a "congested area". Nearby won't do by that definition.
Originally posted by Forbesquote:[?]
You're a bit stuffed as far as any complaint to them is concerned then.
Reply ID 65148
Maybe I'm reading it wrong shunt, but my interpretation is - No stunts allowed over cities, towns, villages or settlements and when performing stunts over uninhabited land you must not fly within 500 foot of a person, vessel, vehicle or structure. And novice pilots must finish a manoeuvre by 3000 foot above ground level. So by my interpretation that makes performing aerobatics over or overlapping dwellings in Hertford a violation.
Reply ID 65149
quote:Just for clarity, it doesn't say "must finish a manoeuvre by 3000 feet", it says "advises novice pilots that all manoeuvres should be completed by 3000 feet". It's advice, not an obligation.
Originally posted by Forbes
...And novice pilots must finish a manoeuvre by 3000 foot above ground level.
Reply ID 65151
quote:I didn't say that it did say that, I was giving my interpretation [:D]
Just for clarity, it doesn't say "must finish a manoeuvre by 3000 feet", it says "advises novice pilots that all manoeuvres should be completed by 3000 feet". It's advice, not an obligation.
Reply ID 65152
quote:Touché!
Originally posted by Forbesquote:I didn't say that it did say that, I was giving my interpretation [:D]
Just for clarity, it doesn't say "must finish a manoeuvre by 3000 feet", it says "advises novice pilots that all manoeuvres should be completed by 3000 feet". It's advice, not an obligation.
Reply ID 65156
quote:Your problem with that is that the flying in this case is taking place nearby, not directly over "congested areas". There is no requirement for land to be uninhabited. The advice is probably made so that there is always open space nearby for an emergency landing.
Originally posted by Forbes
Maybe I'm reading it wrong shunt, but my interpretation is - No stunts allowed over cities, towns, villages or settlements and when performing stunts over uninhabited land you must not fly within 500 foot of a person, vessel, vehicle or structure. And novice pilots must finish a manoeuvre by 3000 foot above ground level. So by my interpretation that makes performing aerobatics over or overlapping dwellings in Hertford a violation.
Reply ID 65158
We seem to be going round in circles (not aerobatic ones[;)]). I and others would disagree, some manoeuvres are taking place directly above "congested areas".
Reply ID 65159
The acrobatic pilot is definitely following me!!! I cannot believe that pangshanger is the only place he needs to fly from.. There are loads of wide open spaces outside of Hertford.. I shall have to invest in a pair of ear plugs!
Reply ID 65160
quote:Maybe you're just pleasant to follow?[;)] Few can claim an airbourne stalker.[:D]
Originally posted by Drama Queen
The acrobatic pilot is definitely following me!!! I cannot believe that pangshanger is the only place he needs to fly from.. There are loads of wide open spaces outside of Hertford.. I shall have to invest in a pair of ear plugs!
Reply ID 65164
[:D] I think he's got his radar on me... "enemy at 12 O'clock" !!! I find flying without wishing to have a nice drink on board and a good film beyond me.. but there you go.. you'd spill it all doing this stuff wouldn't you! Oh well... guess the Police Helicopters will join in shortly!
Reply ID 65170
Shunt, he is definately flying over populated areas - it is irrelevant whether it's "congested" or not best case he is causing a noise nuisance to many people, at worst he is putting other people's lives at risk with his arrogance. I have witnessed him with my own eyes performing acrobatics directly (no optical illusion) over my house in Waterford and his piece de resistance is the stalled engine dive followed by a full throttle recovery that makes the windows in my house rattle and the cats run for cover - how, even in "shuntworld" can that be right?
quote:
Originally posted by shuntquote:Your problem with that is that the flying in this case is taking place nearby, not directly over "congested areas". There is no requirement for land to be uninhabited. The advice is probably made so that there is always open space nearby for an emergency landing.
Originally posted by Forbes
Maybe I'm reading it wrong shunt, but my interpretation is - No stunts allowed over cities, towns, villages or settlements and when performing stunts over uninhabited land you must not fly within 500 foot of a person, vessel, vehicle or structure. And novice pilots must finish a manoeuvre by 3000 foot above ground level. So by my interpretation that makes performing aerobatics over or overlapping dwellings in Hertford a violation.
Reply ID 65185
Getting serious again, if you have horses there are strict rules and regulations about the height you have to be away from them and I think the same for farm animals and especially those breeding livestock. So in reality the acrobatics are not only a nuisance, but are possibly going to cause a very nasty ground accident by animals charging around and possibly injuring others in the process. Let him toddle up to Bedfordshire a bit the other side of Luton.. there are chilterns and he can bomb around there!
Reply ID 65188
quote:Waterford is not a congested city area, but surrounded by fields and open space (as is Chapmore End), and just happens to be where I also observe the flying from. I think the risk is an irrelevence here, being so slight as to be negligable. The noise is another matter. However, that noise and the risk to life is far less than that created by North Road and I don't see any demands to have that closed. The aircraft is an occasional noise and thus more noticeable, I suppose. My view is that we have a talented performer, based locally, who provides us with a free show of a very high standard, on a few occasions per year. It would be churlish not to applaud such a talent and unless I'm also going to go round and complain every time my neighbour cuts his grass too, I can't really complain about the noise either.
Originally posted by Loving Whale
Shunt, he is definately flying over populated areas - it is irrelevant whether it's "congested" or not best case he is causing a noise nuisance to many people, at worst he is putting other people's lives at risk with his arrogance. I have witnessed him with my own eyes performing acrobatics directly (no optical illusion) over my house in Waterford and his piece de resistance is the stalled engine dive followed by a full throttle recovery that makes the windows in my house rattle and the cats run for cover - how, even in "shuntworld" can that be right?quote:
Originally posted by shuntquote:Your problem with that is that the flying in this case is taking place nearby, not directly over "congested areas". There is no requirement for land to be uninhabited. The advice is probably made so that there is always open space nearby for an emergency landing.
Originally posted by Forbes
Maybe I'm reading it wrong shunt, but my interpretation is - No stunts allowed over cities, towns, villages or settlements and when performing stunts over uninhabited land you must not fly within 500 foot of a person, vessel, vehicle or structure. And novice pilots must finish a manoeuvre by 3000 foot above ground level. So by my interpretation that makes performing aerobatics over or overlapping dwellings in Hertford a violation.
Reply ID 65198
quote:'Fraid not DQ. The 500' rule would apply to the farm buildings as included under 'vessel, vehicle, building or structure' but there is no specific ruling for animals - hence the low flying in the Yorkshire Dales by the RAF over all the sheep.
Originally posted by Drama Queen
Getting serious again, if you have horses there are strict rules and regulations about the height you have to be away from them and I think the same for farm animals and especially those breeding livestock.
Reply ID 65213
Don't you remember the front of the Mercury about a year ago... A lady's horse died and is being investigated as it bolted out of her field due to low flying planes and was witnessed by an ex-pilot as the horse ran either into a ditch and died... It was on the front page and there's a whole hoo hah with it. But on low flying planes they cannot fly as low as they once did over livestock.. The rules were changed because of incidents like these.
Reply ID 65228
Well you have a made a comment, that your noise is louder than our noise... !! Thats MOD and the base was there already (albeit a bit mothballed!) We don't have an RAF Base in Pangshanger - yet but we do have two major southern airport hubs (Luton and Stansted) also stacking for Heathrow and I think that means our airspace is quite busy...
Reply ID 65238
[url]http://www.toxicjunction.com/get.asp?i=V4828[/url] [:D]
Reply ID 65241
quote:Now that is low. If our boy ever gets down to that level, I'll be complaining too.....or asking him to trim the front hedge while he's at it.
Originally posted by Leo Densian
[url]http://www.toxicjunction.com/get.asp?i=V4828[/url] [:D]
Reply ID 65248
On the subject of aerobatics. When I retired, the people I worked with got me as a retirement gift, a flight in a Tiger Moth (not quite sure what their intentions were!) We flew from Headcorn airfield in Kent, and I got to take the very elementary controls for a while. The pilot then took control and we did a barrel roll and then looped the loop. It was fantastic. Yes, I know Admin, not really Hertford related, but I am![8D]
Reply ID 65691
[url="http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=ZOd&q=n531rm&btnG=Search&meta="]N531RM[/url] He was briefly over East Hertford this evening making friends with a balloon before returning to his usual practice area.
Reply ID 65693
http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/N531RM.html Prisk? 'Address' and 'Last Action Taken' is a good indicator.
Reply ID 67128
Hi everyone - hoping this link will help you - http://www.hireasurfacetoairmissilelauncher.com
Reply ID 73055
I have this feeling of "deja vu" - Has anyone up in Sele Farm or Hertingfordbury noticed "old buzz boy" is back. He was hurtling to the ground over the field by Bentley Road between 7 & 8pm last night. Unfortunately he managed to pull up again each time - Anyone got a surface to air missile launcher for sale?
Reply ID 73065
yeah, it's that time of year again isnt it Muddy, i did notice he was doing it at dusk, not sure why they do it so much in the lighter months and not in the winter really. It's very annoying.
Reply ID 73093
quote:How do you know it was a male pilot, Muddy?
Originally posted by Muddy
I have this feeling of "deja vu" - Has anyone up in Sele Farm or Hertingfordbury noticed "old buzz boy" is back. He was hurtling to the ground over the field by Bentley Road between 7 & 8pm last night. Unfortunately he managed to pull up again each time - Anyone got a surface to air missile launcher for sale?
Reply ID 73095
Buzz boy - Buzz bird, the gender of the pilot isn't the issue Sally, its the bl**dy noise!
Reply ID 73110
quote:Yeah, never mind we'll just have to put up with it for an hour or so, two to three evenings a week until he/she packs up in September[:(!]
Originally posted by Muddy
Buzz boy - Buzz bird, the gender of the pilot isn't the issue Sally, its the bl**dy noise!
Reply ID 75236
and just started back up again in the last few weeks. what an idiot.
Reply ID 75255
He's just enjoying himself - why is he an idiot?
Reply ID 75259
Kitty Kat, If you lived anywhere near Sele Farm, Bentley Road or on the way to Bramfield you'd know just what an idiot he is. He's out every evening in the summer from about 6pm till it get's dark. He flies straight up, cut's the engine, hurtles to the ground & then straight back up again. I'm not against people having fun & if he flew over here maybe once or twice a week, it would be an enjoyable spectacle. But as I said, this goes on for hours, day after day, just at a time when most people are trying to enjoy some peaceful time in the garden. God help anyone who is trying to get their baby to sleep! This forum is full of people that moan about things, but never actually do anything. If you look back to the start of this thread, you'll see that I did complain to Panshanger Airfield - not that it did any good. I have just written to Herts County Council to ask if their "noise abatement" people are interested in measuring the decibel level in my garden. Perhaps anyone else that's being inconvenienced by this idiot could do the same.
Reply ID 75260
because there are 1000's of acres of farmland round here, and he chooses to do it over the houses. Completely anti social. you dont see people using petrol mowers/hedge trimmers at 9 in the evening either. because they're respectful. so why can this idiot do it in the sky.
Reply ID 75261
Muddy - i've emailed: [email protected] Will see what happens. Suggest others do the same.
Reply ID 75262
quote:Um, I am just about to move to that location. Am a little concerned now.[:0]
Originally posted by Muddy
Kitty Kat, If you lived anywhere near Sele Farm, Bentley Road or on the way to Bramfield you'd know just what an idiot he is.
Reply ID 75265
Codek2, Thanks, I've just forwarded my letter of complaint to the environmental health address you listed. Kateg28, You can hardly hear the noise at all from indoors if you are double-glazed, but you'll definitely hear it outside from just about anywhere on Sele Farm, the houses on Bentley Road probably get the worst of it. I'm guessing that most people there either enjoy watching the spectacle & put up with the noise, or are a bit "hard of hearing". My advice would be to go up there this evening & lurk around for half an hour & see if it bothers you. If it does, get straight onto environmental health!
Reply ID 75268
env health have told me we need to go to the civil aviation authority.. Bucking any responsibility pretty quickly there.
Reply ID 75270
Codek2, I got the same response from environmental health as you. I've asked if they can give me an email address as well as the telephone number.
Reply ID 75276
You won't get any joy complaining to Panshanger Airfield as it's the guy that owns it! His name is Haim Merkado - good luck challenging him, he can be a bit of a bugger Try emailing him directly [email protected]
Reply ID 75280
Let the Battle of Britain/Hertford recommence. Get yours here. http://www.spitfirespares.com/SpitfireSpares.com/Pages/Spitfire%20MkIX%20Replica%20page%201.html
Reply ID 75281
See page 4 of the CAA recommendations: [url]http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/697/srg_env_00001-01-30902004.pdf[/url]
Reply ID 75287
If you are going to make a complaint or take it further than that, it would be a good idea to have dates and times logged. All pilots have to log flights, but it won't say "over Doreen's house." If you are accurate with dates and times, it will preclude any did - didn't - did - didn't style arguing.
Reply ID 75303
quote:And video footage might also be useful.
Originally posted by Billywindsock
If you are going to make a complaint or take it further than that, it would be a good idea to have dates and times logged. All pilots have to log flights, but it won't say "over Doreen's house." If you are accurate with dates and times, it will preclude any did - didn't - did - didn't style arguing.
Reply ID 75341
quote:'tis lovely.......but I meant footage showing how close the plane is to residential areas.
Originally posted by Steve
http://www.hertford.net/video/viewHD.asp?video=MVI_0723
Reply ID 75348
so it turns out there's probably nota lot that can be done - the caa will only get involved if he's less than 1000ft from houses. but I can't see that he is. and environmental health have no control over noise polution from aircraft. And if kitty is right, then he probably already knows this.
Reply ID 75358
quote:[:D]
Originally posted by codek2
so it turns out there's probably nota lot that can be done - the caa will only get involved if he's less than 1000ft from houses. but I can't see that he is. and environmental health have no control over noise polution from aircraft. And if kitty is right, then he probably already knows this.
Reply ID 75858
Looks like there's going to be a rush on for SAM's [IMG]http://dc265.4shared.com/img/346976077/6b937675/800px-Akash_SAM.jpg?rnd=0.17996609170551991[/IMG]
Reply ID 75859
Did I hear him practicing early this afternoon to the east of Hertford[?]
Reply ID 75862
He was. I was walking over to Chapmore End and saw him pulling his stunts
Reply ID 75865
Yes he was over the Chapmore End / Bengeo/ Molewood area we could see him over the Water Tower between about 2 and 3 pm
Reply ID 75867
It was a nice day for him to practise! Think I heard him briefly in the background too.
Reply ID 75869
Was he practicing in a different area than usual as I could actually see him (for the first time ever[8D]) as well as hearing him much louder than previously. Has he taken the hint from the Sele Farm residents and started moving his display around[?] Is he trying to placate the complainants or annoy a larger number of residents[?][:)]
Reply ID 75870
quote:I wondered that, if he moves around to practice that has to be fairer on everyone, whilst it is Ok occasionally I can quite understand that it would become very annoying too often. I have only ever seen him this far over once before, I am sure at one stage yesterday he flew quite a long way upside down, how safe is that?
Originally posted by Eyeone
Was he practicing in a different area than usual as I could actually see him (for the first time ever[8D]) as well as hearing him much louder than previously. Has he taken the hint from the Sele Farm residents and started moving his display around[?] Is he trying to placate the complainants or annoy a larger number of residents[?][:)]
Reply ID 75872
quote:There were two aircraft performing stunts yesterday afternoon around the time and areas stated. The first was a bi-plane. The second was much faster with a single wing and whilst red, it had a chess-board pattern on the wing. Neither aircraft looked like the above photo posted early in this thread, identified as the "offending" plane so are we sure this is the same pilot? Yesterday's stunts entertained my neighbours and I for around half-an-hour though, like Marilyn, I can see how repetitive performances could become annoying.
Originally posted by Steve
Is this it? [img]http://www.yakuk.com/img/EA_FRs.jpg[/img] http://www.yakuk.com/img/EA_FRs.jpg[/img] If so, this was discussed last year... http://www.yakuk.com/img/EA_FRs.jpg[/img]
Reply ID 75877
Although it was some distance away I’m pretty sue I was watching the bi-plane.
Reply ID 75912
M.O.D. may be able to supply you with something of about .500 calibre. That should do the trick....
Reply ID 75932
It might be worth the time to see if there are any bylaws that effect stunt flying. When I worked for the M.O.D there was a clear understanding that stunt flying was only limited to air events. It may also be worth the time to see if there is some old "weired" law that covers stunt flying. there are a few around... "It is illegal to die in the Houses of Parliament, All English males over the age 14 are to carry out 2 or so hours of longbow practice a week supervised by the local clergy! It is legal for a male to urinate in public, as long it is on the rear wheel of his motor vehicle and his right hand is on the vehicle. It is illegal to be drunk in a pub or bar. Any boy under the age of 10 may not see a naked mannequin. In Scotland it is illegal to be a drunk in possession of a cow." That is to name but a few odd laws. Maybe Longmores Solicitors can give you more information. Though I am sure something does exist covering stunt flying.
Reply ID 75933
quote:It might be interesting to see when he/she is flying low, if you can hit the plane with a double barreled 12 bore shot gun. If you can, then that is LOW flying!!
Originally posted by tiger.1000
M.O.D. may be able to supply you with something of about .500 calibre. That should do the trick....
Reply ID 75945
12 gauge shotgun only effective at about 40 yards.....
Reply ID 75971
Why do people keep going on about this guy fly aerobatics? Why not just go up to the airfield and ask him not to keep flying in the same area! I don't get these wingers who seem to pick on something like this. Problems Sele Farm has got and they go on about flights out of Panshanger. I don't get why he flys the same area though...i fly a paramotor and allways go somewhere else to do low level anoying stuff...never in your own back yard! But leave Panshanger alone!
Reply ID 75972
And, I've contributed to this thread regularly over the last 3 years. I haven't got a problem with all the other aircraft that fly into & out of Panshanger - it's just this one guy that's spoiling it for everyone else. In fact, if we have kids come to stay, we always take them up to Panshanger to watch the planes & helicopters flying in and out. You'll see from recent comments that its not just Sele Farm that's affected, Tewin, Burnham Green & Chapmore End have all experienced the problem. He may be getting the message, because I certainly haven't heard him on the last few evenings - but he might have gone on his holidays, so I'm not getting too excited yet. If he took your advice & flew in different areas, I'd be happy with that. You mention wingers, if that's whingers you obviously haven't heard the racket that this guy makes or you'd be a winger too!
Reply ID 75973
I did mean whingers…sorry. I was just reading the postings. Wasn’t there something in the Mercury recently about a petition against Panshanger? Nothing wrong with Panshanger…agree this guy should practice else where…but I don’t get why the moaners don’t take a trip up there and tell him! I like people who get out and do things! I’ll go back to being quiet.
Reply ID 80845
quote:He's back! :-( P
Originally posted by Muddy
I haven't got a problem with all the other aircraft that fly into & out of Panshanger - it's just this one guy that's spoiling it for everyone else.
Reply ID 80887
Not the same guy? [url]http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/evacuation_over_fears_that_crashed_light_aircraft_in_welwyn_garden_city_could_explode_1_875652[/url]
Reply ID 80890
quote:No. It's Beagle Pup G-AXPM.
Originally posted by Joe
Not the same guy? [url]http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/evacuation_over_fears_that_crashed_light_aircraft_in_welwyn_garden_city_could_explode_1_875652[/url]
Reply ID 80913
quote:Darn! I thought karma was getting it's own back. On a serious note, is it safe to have a aerodrome so close to houses? This time they where lucky but next time???????
Originally posted by Stevequote:No. It's Beagle Pup G-AXPM.
Originally posted by Joe
Not the same guy? [url]http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/evacuation_over_fears_that_crashed_light_aircraft_in_welwyn_garden_city_could_explode_1_875652[/url]
Reply ID 80916
quote:I would be more concerned about four wheeled transport close to houses. A few years back I was sitting in The Feathers in Wadesmill when a car came through the wall into the bar. And recently a Peugeot left the A414 and went through a wall, narrowly missing the ground floor flat.
Originally posted by Joequote:Darn! I thought karma was getting it's own back. On a serious note, is it safe to have a aerodrome so close to houses? This time they where lucky but next time???????
Originally posted by Stevequote:No. It's Beagle Pup G-AXPM.
Originally posted by Joe
Not the same guy? [url]http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/evacuation_over_fears_that_crashed_light_aircraft_in_welwyn_garden_city_could_explode_1_875652[/url]
Reply ID 80918
quote:The question should be: is it safe to have houses so close to an aerodrome? The airfield was there first.
Originally posted by Joe On a serious note, is it safe to have a aerodrome so close to houses? This time they where lucky but next time???????
Reply ID 80920
I sometimes cycle up to the aerodrome via the Cole Green Way. A nice, simple ride with a cafe at the airfield where you can sit and watch the planes coming and going. The site was originally a decoy airfield in the second world war, succeeding in taking hits that would otherwise have landed at strategic sites.
Reply ID 80926
quote:I wnt in there last summer and they refused to serve me as I was not a pilot or a member of the airfield/flying club, though have been served before, apparently now members only
Originally posted by Ewoowar
I sometimes cycle up to the aerodrome via the Cole Green Way. A nice, simple ride with a cafe at the airfield where you can sit and watch the planes coming and going. The site was originally a decoy airfield in the second world war, succeeding in taking hits that would otherwise have landed at strategic sites.
Reply ID 80929
quote:Yep........you need to join. But the membership is not their idea. They have to do it apparently to ensure only affiliated members are on site. The membership is very cheap plus you get access to all of their events. Membership also covers the whole household.
Originally posted by Andrewquote:I wnt in there last summer and they refused to serve me as I was not a pilot or a member of the airfield/flying club, though have been served before, apparently now members only
Originally posted by Ewoowar
I sometimes cycle up to the aerodrome via the Cole Green Way. A nice, simple ride with a cafe at the airfield where you can sit and watch the planes coming and going. The site was originally a decoy airfield in the second world war, succeeding in taking hits that would otherwise have landed at strategic sites.
Reply ID 80981
The more crappy unreliable Peugeots that get written off, the better
![http://www.yakuk.com/img/EA_FRs.jpg[/img]](http://www.yakuk.com/img/EA_FRs.jpg[/img]){kind=link}
![http://dc265.4shared.com/img/346976077/6b937675/800px-Akash_SAM.jpg?rnd=0.17996609170551991[/IMG]](http://dc265.4shared.com/img/346976077/6b937675/800px-Akash_SAM.jpg?rnd=0.17996609170551991[/IMG]){kind=link}