Topic ID 3458
So here's an idea. So that traffic can be isolated from the town centre (mainly Bull Plain from Café Uno to Folly Island) and we can have a thriving market once again without the worry of cars running people over, why doesn't the council open up Thornton street as access to folly Island, and then close access off to folly island just before (coming from town) the entrance to the barge? Also don't allow vehicles down bull plain on Saturdays thus leaving it free for a massive market again. We would only lose the spaces outside the stone house, the car park that is opposite the Hertford club would suffer but I cant please everyone today and tomorrow isn't looking good either :) before anyone asks Coppers court would have to access via Thornton street, bollards would be to the right as you come out of coppers court. Problems I cant work out here is will the roads be big enough for delivery to Barge?
Reply ID 50521
Better still, bung the court out, demolish Bircherly Green and Mitre Court and put the markets back where they were.[}:)]
Reply ID 50525
quote:Cue opening can of worms. I seem to recall that this has been the subject of much discussion and anxiety in the past and away from this forum. I'm sure Sloop will be able to offer some explanation, unless he fears waking the proverbial slumbering canine.
Originally posted by teddylad
...why doesn't the council open up Thornton street as access to folly Island, and then close access off to folly island just before (coming from town) the entrance to the barge?
Reply ID 50526
Sorry if this has already been discussed elsewhere didn't know. Sloop as a man with his ear to the ground any word on this would be interesting.
Reply ID 50527
quote:Sorry, no criticism of you intended. I did a quick search of the forum and couldn't find anything that explained the background to this.
Originally posted by teddylad
Sorry if this has already been discussed elsewhere didn't know. Sloop as a man with his ear to the ground any word on this would be interesting.
Reply ID 50528
Can we turn Parliament Square into a full pedestrianised Piazza while we are at it too please ?
Reply ID 50530
quote:Good God no! A piazza anywhere else in the world is an alive busy place. I've never understood this British idea of town center atmosphere sanitation. If you want quiet, go live on Dartmoor, but leave our towns to be towns.
Originally posted by Donostia
Can we turn Parliament Square into a full pedestrianised Piazza while we are at it too please ?
Reply ID 50532
quote:I've got you worked out! You don't like aynwhere that begins with a D! [;)]
Originally posted by shuntquote:Good God no! A piazza anywhere else in the world is an alive busy place. I've never understood this British idea of town center atmosphere sanitation. If you want quiet, go live on Dartmoor, but leave our towns to be towns.
Originally posted by Donostia
Can we turn Parliament Square into a full pedestrianised Piazza while we are at it too please ?
Reply ID 50533
quote:I'm torn on the idea. On one hand I like the idea of more pedestrian zones, but on the other hand I have visions of the shop walkways of St Helens, Watford and Hoddesdon!
Originally posted by teddylad
So here's an idea. So that traffic can be isolated from the town centre (mainly Bull Plain from Café Uno to Folly Island) and we can have a thriving market once again without the worry of cars running people over, why doesn't the council open up Thornton street as access to folly Island, and then close access off to folly island just before (coming from town) the entrance to the barge? Also don't allow vehicles down bull plain on Saturdays thus leaving it free for a massive market again. We would only lose the spaces outside the stone house, the car park that is opposite the Hertford club would suffer but I cant please everyone today and tomorrow isn't looking good either :) before anyone asks Coppers court would have to access via Thornton street, bollards would be to the right as you come out of coppers court. Problems I cant work out here is will the roads be big enough for delivery to Barge?
Reply ID 50535
A piazza anywhere else in the world is an alive busy place Exactly what i was after , who mentioned 'atmosphere sanitation' ??
Reply ID 50536
Having awoken from a self induced slumber the following should answer teddylad and everyone else. When I was made Chairman of the Folly Island Association in 2001 residents had been campaigning since 1976 for a Residents Parking Zone (RPZ). Highways under the guise of Mouchel TSC (The Shire Consultancy) was pushing for a scheme very similar, almost identical to that posed by teddylad. Mouchel and Highways are organisations founded from officers and engineers who had served at East Herts, HCC and companies such as Amey LaFarge. The Island policy was no reversal of trafic flow without a RPZ and negotiations weren't progressing at all well. In 2002 we had a meeting at the Barge and everyone agreed on that joint plan; there was not an overwhelming majority from residents esp those in Thornton Street but the committee took an overall majority view and we decided to go ahead with reversing the traffic on the understanding that a RPZ would be put in place. Later that year Mouchel organised a meeting at The Stonehouse for traders and residents in Bull Plain regarding pedestrianisation, or as they liked to call it traffic enhancement, including a tree lined, seated area outside the Stonehouse. This plan was not well received by traders who could see problems with deliveries, customer parking and isolation and it was put back for further negotiation. It never got that far because .... To our surprise East Herts Council announced that it was to adopt decriminalisation, Mouchel dropped out of the consultation and everyone else, and we got Arup in their place. The idea of reversing the traffic flow was also dropped - one of the main objections coming from McMullens who did not want any changes to access in Hartham Lane. In view of current developments an interesting viewpoint. The emergency services were also keen on access to Folly Island being over Thornton Street bridge. There was a lot of talk about a modern myth - the ransom strip over the bridge but basically one one point remained - the RPZ. Arup consulted, and consulted - repeating all that had gone before, and recommended a RPZ but with some changes to what we had agreed with Mouchel. When the plans were published the second parking ticket allowance had been removed but oddly enough retained in the other two pilot schemes in Stortford. The whole RPZ was put in some jeopardy once Dorrington Investments sold off their holding on the Island to Mr Oates. Personally I hoped that this traffic reversal would have been part of the negotiations with Sainsburys but not so. I am not sure now after 7 years what the general feeling is on the Island - people have moved out, moved on etc. However as I have said elsewhere I think that this is still on someone's drawing board somewhere. The traffic flow by Corn Exchange was part of a scheme to direct traffic away from the Island and/or the Bull Plain area but with satnavs and if you have seen past issues of the Mercury, with limited success. It might be that if Sainsburys get their approval and the road network around the site is revised that access to the Island could be through Thornton Street. It would make access to the A10/A414 easier and hopefully reduce the amount of traffic in the town centre esp in and around Salisbury Square. Not much more to say on this issue. Will take the obligatory half pint and return to my exile.
Reply ID 50539
quote:Off topic here...........but I didn't think the traffic routing was part of the Sainsbury application. I am interested to know if it is.
Originally posted by sloopjohnb
Having awoken from a self induced slumber the following should answer teddylad and everyone else. When I was made Chairman of the Folly Island Association in 2001 residents had been campaigning since 1976 for a Residents Parking Zone (RPZ). Highways under the guise of Mouchel TSC (The Shire Consultancy) was pushing for a scheme very similar, almost identical to that posed by teddylad. Mouchel and Highways are organisations founded from officers and engineers who had served at East Herts, HCC and companies such as Amey LaFarge. The Island policy was no reversal of trafic flow without a RPZ and negotiations weren't progressing at all well. In 2002 we had a meeting at the Barge and everyone agreed on that joint plan; there was not an overwhelming majority from residents esp those in Thornton Street but the committee took an overall majority view and we decided to go ahead with reversing the traffic on the understanding that a RPZ would be put in place. Later that year Mouchel organised a meeting at The Stonehouse for traders and residents in Bull Plain regarding pedestrianisation, or as they liked to call it traffic enhancement, including a tree lined, seated area outside the Stonehouse. This plan was not well received by traders who could see problems with deliveries, customer parking and isolation and it was put back for further negotiation. It never got that far because .... To our surprise East Herts Council announced that it was to adopt decriminalisation, Mouchel dropped out of the consultation and everyone else, and we got Arup in their place. The idea of reversing the traffic flow was also dropped - one of the main objections coming from McMullens who did not want any changes to access in Hartham Lane. In view of current developments an interesting viewpoint. The emergency services were also keen on access to Folly Island being over Thornton Street bridge. There was a lot of talk about a modern myth - the ransom strip over the bridge but basically one one point remained - the RPZ. Arup consulted, and consulted - repeating all that had gone before, and recommended a RPZ but with some changes to what we had agreed with Mouchel. When the plans were published the second parking ticket allowance had been removed but oddly enough retained in the other two pilot schemes in Stortford. The whole RPZ was put in some jeopardy once Dorrington Investments sold off their holding on the Island to Mr Oates. Personally I hoped that this traffic reversal would have been part of the negotiations with Sainsburys but not so. I am not sure now after 7 years what the general feeling is on the Island - people have moved out, moved on etc. However as I have said elsewhere I think that this is still on someone's drawing board somewhere. The traffic flow by Corn Exchange was part of a scheme to direct traffic away from the Island and/or the Bull Plain area but with satnavs and if you have seen past issues of the Mercury, with limited success. It might be that if Sainsburys get their approval and the road network around the site is revised that access to the Island could be through Thornton Street. It would make access to the A10/A414 easier and hopefully reduce the amount of traffic in the town centre esp in and around Salisbury Square. Not much more to say on this issue. Will take the obligatory half pint and return to my exile.
Reply ID 50542
quote:This has been suggested more than once. We thought this would be a great idea if only for evenings and weekends in the summer months. Maybe just stopping the buses going both ways would help!!!
Originally posted by shuntquote:Good God no! A piazza anywhere else in the world is an alive busy place. I've never understood this British idea of town center atmosphere sanitation. If you want quiet, go live on Dartmoor, but leave our towns to be towns.
Originally posted by Donostia
Can we turn Parliament Square into a full pedestrianised Piazza while we are at it too please ?
Reply ID 50543
quote:Sorry, in hindsight that must have seemed rude. What I was getting at was that there seems to be an expectation of there being no traffic in towns, instead diverting it to bypasses which cut swathes across the countyside. Where else would traffic be, but in towns? They are it's logical destination and part of the culture of urban dwelling. The piazzas of Rome and Paris reverberate with scooters and car horns because they are in a city, the tables and chairs in the villages of southern France are on the pavements of the main routes and cafe society exists alongside. I don't want Hertford to become a "precinct".
Originally posted by Donostia
A piazza anywhere else in the world is an alive busy place Exactly what i was after , who mentioned 'atmosphere sanitation' ??
Reply ID 50545
Obviously it is 'pie in the sky' anyway as they would never pave over Parliament Sq but Kitty Kat may be on to something with her Summer evenings and weekends idea. [8D]
Reply ID 50563
I think its a great idea - let Hertford Hotel have chairs and tables outside too
Reply ID 50589
quote:They have put in for planning to do just that - second time, I think. Not sure it will work - how will waiters and waitresses dodge the buses etc - Health and Safety!! We are all in favour of livening up P Square - lots of pavement with not much going on most of the year - so roll on summer and let's get some life out there [8D]
Originally posted by Frenchie
I think its a great idea - let Hertford Hotel have chairs and tables outside too
Reply ID 50634
The markey is cr@p. If I wanted to buy some army surplus dross or cheap biscuits I would go somewhere like Harlow or Stevenage. Get rid of the pikey thing.
Reply ID 50636
quote:You seem to be overlooking the fish stall, cheese stall, bread stall, olive stall, pancakes, eggs..... I could go on. To pick out the stalls you mention as representative of the market is rather unfair IMHO.
Originally posted by aubend
The markey is cr@p. If I wanted to buy some army surplus dross or cheap biscuits I would go somewhere like Harlow or Stevenage. Get rid of the pikey thing.
Reply ID 50639
quote:Sorry - I may of mis-read, I was saying close the road from Bell Lane (circa the camping shop) to the Main road (The Wash)
They have put in for planning to do just that - second time, I think. Not sure it will work - how will waiters and waitresses dodge the buses etc - Health and Safety!!
Reply ID 50641
quote:Why do you persist in running Hertford down? If you really hate it here that much, then leave [:(!]
Originally posted by aubend
The markey is cr@p. If I wanted to buy some army surplus dross or cheap biscuits I would go somewhere like Harlow or Stevenage. Get rid of the pikey thing.
Reply ID 50652
quote:I live here, you do not so my opinion counts more than yours. Thanks for the patronising advice though.
Originally posted by Kitty Kat
Why do you persist in running Hertford down? If you really hate it here that much, then leave [:(!]
Reply ID 50653
quote:You are of course right Steve. But surely markets were originally created to supply fresh food and produce etc. The tat that clogs up Hertford on Saturdays, especially along Maidenhead Street is in my view detrimental to the trade and impression of the town and is nothing but a Chav magnet.
Originally posted by Steve
You seem to be overlooking the fish stall, cheese stall, bread stall, olive stall, pancakes, eggs..... I could go on. To pick out the stalls you mention as representative of the market is rather unfair IMHO.
Reply ID 50656
quote:I still own property in Hertford, lived in the town centre for 26 years - run a business in the town and think that my opinion counts as much as anyone elses. Just trying to understand why every post you make is a negative one regarding Hertford. Markets have always been a source of cheap goods for those that want or need a bargain. Don't knock the 'chavs' as you call them - what makes you so much better than them?
Originally posted by aubendquote:I live here, you do not so my opinion counts more than yours. Thanks for the patronising advice though.
Originally posted by Kitty Kat
Why do you persist in running Hertford down? If you really hate it here that much, then leave [:(!]
Reply ID 50663
quote:Racist comment ? Maybe or maybe not , argued about on message boards around the country , but certaintley an obnoxious and arrogant comment detrimental to this message board .
Get rid of the pikey thing.
Reply ID 50664
Plenty of moral higher ground being claimed here. Either way, I think the market, or large sections of it, are detrimental to the town. But what do I know, I am not self satisfied.
Reply ID 50673
'Pikey.'- I couldn't resist looking it up on wikipedia. I always thought it referred to a naive private in the Home Guard, and originally it did actually mean 'a low ranking soldier who merely carries a pike'. More recently it's been a term of abuse directed at Travellers and Gypsies, but has of late taken on roughly the same meaning as 'Chav'. Lesson over. Quite how the word therefore relates to our market I'm not sure. I'll leave others to argue. Regards.- Dennis Moore (not real name)- just a sad git with nothing better to do on a Saturday night!
Reply ID 50674
quote:I believe it refers to it targeting so called 'pikeys'. And I'm sorry. When you see a market stall selling pirate copies of films, music and games; well... I think it's far to say that that brings down benefit and prestige to the town. Bear in mind; that sort of thing doesn't come to markets unless there is already a large percentage of people likely to buy it: i.e. pikeys, chavs, scallys - whatever you want to call them.
Originally posted by dennismoore
'Pikey.'- I couldn't resist looking it up on wikipedia. I always thought it referred to a naive private in the Home Guard, and originally it did actually mean 'a low ranking soldier who merely carries a pike'. More recently it's been a term of abuse directed at Travellers and Gypsies, but has of late taken on roughly the same meaning as 'Chav'. Lesson over. Quite how the word therefore relates to our market I'm not sure. I'll leave others to argue. Regards.- Dennis Moore (not real name)- just a sad git with nothing better to do on a Saturday night!
Reply ID 50678
quote:Moral high ground - I think you need to take a good hard look at your previous postings (mainly regarding traffic/housing/developers etc) I believe that we are all equal and that no-one should stand in judgement of anyone else. Therefore, the 'pikeys' are just as entitled to shop in town as anyone else - live and let live [:)]
Originally posted by aubend
Plenty of moral higher ground being claimed here. Either way, I think the market, or large sections of it, are detrimental to the town. But what do I know, I am not self satisfied.
Reply ID 50682
quote:Who are you? Jesus? ([:)])
Originally posted by Kitty Kat
I believe that we are all equal and that no-one should stand in judgement of anyone else.
Reply ID 50685
quote:That would be tricky, as he doesn't exist [:0]
Originally posted by aubendquote:Who are you? Jesus? ([:)])
Originally posted by Kitty Kat
I believe that we are all equal and that no-one should stand in judgement of anyone else.
Reply ID 50686
cum on then aubend yer u tell me y u got such a prob wiv chavs an y they the most discusting fing u eva cos i no i am gr8 n just cos i gt the kappa trackie n the rings n the voxal nova dunt mean there is nuffin rong wiv me does it?
Reply ID 50691
Just wandered in to take a look at how this thread is going.[:)] I think I'll just wander out again.[:0][V] Come on guys![:o)]
Reply ID 50693
Ahem...sorry about that. Its like I've just awoken from some horrible dream init [:I]
Reply ID 50694
quote:Well put Shunt - I think we are all trying to say that Hertford has a place for everyone, whatever their background. Let's all just try and live our own lives and let others get on with theirs hey?[:I]
Originally posted by shunt
Just wandered in to take a look at how this thread is going.[:)] I think I'll just wander out again.[:0][V] Come on guys![:o)]