Topic ID 3266
With all the posts about Mega Tescos and Sainsburys future plans to add to our town's congestion, howz about pursuing the idea of a tunnel again? If it was paid for with a levy on the community charge (like Ken's doing in London for the Olympics) would we not all be pleased to cough up? Anyone out there good at Maths? How much would it cost us all? Worth a punt, surely...
Reply ID 47050
What you are suggesting is not so odd as many might think. The idea of Hertford becoming a BID - Business Improvement District - is not so far fetched. With budget cuts all around putting a levy on rates is about the only answer. All business sectors would have to agree to a nominal increase in rates BUT the income raised would go towards a specific project. There are many BIDS around the country. I'll mention this again in the relevant quarters - but someone may have to agree to paying me a massive increase in salary to deliver it.
Reply ID 47070
Good that you brought this up Arty, I was talking about it with a local business owner only yesterday and it's a subject that people are still very interested in. We all know it would be very expensive but could anyone say roughly just how expensive? I imagine it would create a lot of lucrative space for development and perhaps it could be made into a toll road. A BID sounds interesting, is there a downside to this? Maybe Sainsburys and Tescos could be persuaded to get involved. (Tesco Way instead of Gascoyne Way? It would almost be worth it!)
Reply ID 47074
Depends where from and where it would emerge...
Reply ID 47077
OK - here is an estimated cost based on how much the Channel tunnel cost... The Channel Tunnel cost £12 billion and is 31 miles long. Therefore it works out at £387,096,774 per mile. Therefore the Hertford tunnel would cost this per mile. Say it was 2 miles long, this would mean it would cost a mere £774,193,548 - just over 3 quarters of a billion pounds (quite a lot of extra council tax!) [:0]
Reply ID 47080
Isn't the channel tunnel actually three tunnels - 1 in each direction and a service tunnel? Therefore we could be looking at nearer £250k. £250k wouldn't be too bad when you consider Sele Farm got 7 extra parking spaces for £350k!
Reply ID 47082
quote:I think you are getting thousands mixed up with millions - this would be an enormous engineering project[:)]
Originally posted by JohnSmith
Isn't the channel tunnel actually three tunnels - 1 in each direction and a service tunnel? Therefore we could be looking at nearer £250k. £250k wouldn't be too bad when you consider Sele Farm got 7 extra parking spaces for £350k!
Reply ID 47084
Other than Hatfield (a motorway) can anyone name a precedent? As Aubend rightly points out, this would be an enormous engineering project, the cost of which would be prohibitive from the outset. Also, The Channel tunnel is a train tunnel(s), not a road, it's a different beast altogether.
Reply ID 47088
quote:Hatfield isn't even a tunnel, it's ditch with a roof put on it afterwards. To do the same would first require the demolition of Hertford.
Originally posted by Steve
Other than Hatfield (a motorway) can anyone name a precedent? As Aubend rightly points out, this would be an enormous engineering project, the cost of which would be prohibitive from the outset. Also, The Channel tunnel is a train tunnel(s), not a road, it's a different beast altogether.
Reply ID 47089
quote:Otherwise known as a "cut and cover" tunnel.
Originally posted by shunt
Hatfield isn't even a tunnel, it's ditch with a roof put on it afterwards.
Reply ID 47091
I concur with Steve. Which other towns have a tunnel?
Reply ID 47093
quote:As the great Homer Simpson would say - D'oh!
Originally posted by aubendquote:I think you are getting thousands mixed up with millions - this would be an enormous engineering project[:)]
Originally posted by JohnSmith
Isn't the channel tunnel actually three tunnels - 1 in each direction and a service tunnel? Therefore we could be looking at nearer £250k. £250k wouldn't be too bad when you consider Sele Farm got 7 extra parking spaces for £350k!
Reply ID 47099
quote:I can't think of any really that go under the built up area where a river is not involved or its of 'cut and cover' construction. The new tunnel on the Baldock bypass does not really count either. Slightly different in mainland Europe: [url]http://www.theaa.com/public_affairs/reports/going_underground.pdf[/url]
Originally posted by Ewoowar
I concur with Steve. Which other towns have a tunnel?
Reply ID 47111
quote:This would not work as it will conflict with the future plans for the Hertford Underground Train System. I think David Yates saw some of the original plans for the lines that would service Hertford town centre.
Originally posted by Arty
With all the posts about Mega Tescos and Sainsburys future plans to add to our town's congestion, howz about pursuing the idea of a tunnel again? If it was paid for with a levy on the community charge (like Ken's doing in London for the Olympics) would we not all be pleased to cough up? Anyone out there good at Maths? How much would it cost us all? Worth a punt, surely...
Reply ID 47115
I have seen the map and the tunnel exists. Raymond Brown told me so.[:D]
Reply ID 47123
Didn't a mercury April Fool once suggest a flyover? I thought that was quite a good idea and it would be a lot cheaper than a tunnel.
Reply ID 47124
quote:Go stand at the junction of the A5 and A406 at Brent Cross and ask yourself if that's how you'd like your home town to look.[:0] It's a fine example of what excessive roadbuilding does to communities.
Originally posted by Dreamer
Didn't a mercury April Fool once suggest a flyover? I thought that was quite a good idea and it would be a lot cheaper than a tunnel.
Reply ID 47125
There is a tunnel similar to the one Hertford would require as you drive in to the Chav heartland of Chatham Maritime in Kent. No idea how much that cost to build, but the whole area around it is a recent development, including a new island, called St Mary's Island, that was constructed and a shedload of houses built on it
Reply ID 47129
quote:This is part of the Thames Gateway regeneration. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_Gateway
Originally posted by thefair1973
There is a tunnel similar to the one Hertford would require as you drive in to the Chav heartland of Chatham Maritime in Kent. No idea how much that cost to build, but the whole area around it is a recent development, including a new island, called St Mary's Island, that was constructed and a shedload of houses built on it
Reply ID 47130
quote:Yes it did. It also had slip roads to and from the top floor of the multi-story car park.
Originally posted by Dreamer
Didn't a mercury April Fool once suggest a flyover? I thought that was quite a good idea and it would be a lot cheaper than a tunnel.
Reply ID 47145
quote:Totlly different type of construction though - it was 'sunk' into a trench in the river bed. [url]http://www.medway.gov.uk/index/environment/streets/2503.html[/url]
Originally posted by thefair1973
There is a tunnel similar to the one Hertford would require as you drive in to the Chav heartland of Chatham Maritime in Kent. No idea how much that cost to build, but the whole area around it is a recent development, including a new island, called St Mary's Island, that was constructed and a shedload of houses built on it
Reply ID 47153
Why has no one mentioned the cheaper and more environmentally friendly idea of a bypass?
Reply ID 47158
quote:Or the even cheaper and actually environmentally friendly idea of no bypass. Environmentally a new road is a disaster, no matter how you build it.
Originally posted by Dude
Why has no one mentioned the cheaper and more environmentally friendly idea of a bypass?
Reply ID 47160
or indeed isnt there anything that can be done to improve the existing roads? that would be the best option. If (?) it can be made dual carriage way all the way through - i.e. modify the railway bridge, then the problem is fixed immediately. Perhaps some lights synchronised with each other on the other roundabouts too. A bypass will take decades to sort though - it's likely to be extremely strongly opposed. Just look at how long the A10 bypass took from start to completion. ( and it's the wrong fix for the problem )
Reply ID 47162
quote:I was actually suggesting not making it easier at all. In previous posts, there have been complaints of unnessecary journeys, particularly associated with school runs. These will continue, until it become downright inconvenient to take the car, rather than walk. Let the traffic grind to a halt. A few more might discover that it takes ten minutes less to walk from Bengeo to SB than it takes to drive it.
Originally posted by codek2
or indeed isnt there anything that can be done to improve the existing roads? that would be the best option. If (?) it can be made dual carriage way all the way through - i.e. modify the railway bridge, then the problem is fixed immediately. Perhaps some lights synchronised with each other on the other roundabouts too. A bypass will take decades to sort though - it's likely to be extremely strongly opposed. Just look at how long the A10 bypass took from start to completion. ( and it's the wrong fix for the problem )
Reply ID 47163
We should have a town congestion charge scheme. All rush hour journeys should be taxed to the point where people think "erm - is this journey really necessary". That way, rich people like me can have much easier journeys. [:)]
Reply ID 47171
A congestion charge scheme around the schools would be a good idea. Commuters and people visiting Hertford would not the be effected.
Reply ID 47183
quote:Fantastic Idea..... Obviously if those with disabled kids had an excemption
Originally posted by spitfire
A congestion charge scheme around the schools would be a good idea. Commuters and people visiting Hertford would not the be effected.
Reply ID 47202
quote:Commuters to the town, or commuters through it? Half the problem is that the trafic is not local. Its commuters using it as one of the view viable East to west routes north of the M25. If the A414 bypassed the town, then sanity could prevail for the real local traffic.
Originally posted by spitfire
A congestion charge scheme around the schools would be a good idea. Commuters and people visiting Hertford would not the be effected.
Reply ID 47203
quote:Thing is, its arguable that the school runner from Bengeo to SB has more of a right to be driving though Hertford on their local community roads than the commuter traveling between Harlow and Hemel who wants to avoid the M25. Taking the school runners out reduces the traffic volume, but an even bigger impact could be had if we removed the non resident commuters using Hertford as a giant cut through. A bypass would do that! [img]http://prince.org/i/s/icon_chair.gif[/img] [:)]
Originally posted by shuntquote:I was actually suggesting not making it easier at all. In previous posts, there have been complaints of unnessecary journeys, particularly associated with school runs. These will continue, until it become downright inconvenient to take the car, rather than walk. Let the traffic grind to a halt. A few more might discover that it takes ten minutes less to walk from Bengeo to SB than it takes to drive it.
Originally posted by codek2
or indeed isnt there anything that can be done to improve the existing roads? that would be the best option. If (?) it can be made dual carriage way all the way through - i.e. modify the railway bridge, then the problem is fixed immediately. Perhaps some lights synchronised with each other on the other roundabouts too. A bypass will take decades to sort though - it's likely to be extremely strongly opposed. Just look at how long the A10 bypass took from start to completion. ( and it's the wrong fix for the problem )
Reply ID 47206
quote:Problem then, it would be likely the town would die, certainly custom in the centre would drop dramatically. We'd end up with another Hoddesdon on our hands with loads of empty shops.
If the A414 bypassed the town, then sanity could prevail for the real local traffic.
Reply ID 47210
Yep, the whole point of a Bypass is that you go past without entering and that would kill the town.
Reply ID 47212
quote:Aha, the Hertford Underground (Transport for Hertford) plan. I understand that there will be a 'Circle' line around Fore Street, with stations at Kebab East and Kebab North. There were plans for stations called 'Horse' in between the 'White' and 'Black' pubs but I understand that the flooding of the underpass was making the engineering work much more difficult than expected. A short term solution would be a 'raft' or 'small boat' transfer, but I'm not expecting miracles. Next discussions for TFH are expected over several beers in a pub near you...
This would not work as it will conflict with the future plans for the Hertford Underground Train System. I think David Yates saw some of the original plans for the lines that would service Hertford town centre.
Reply ID 47214
quote:Spurious argument. There are plenty of thriving towns that don't have dual carriageways running through their centre.
Originally posted by codek2quote:Problem then, it would be likely the town would die, certainly custom in the centre would drop dramatically. We'd end up with another Hoddesdon on our hands with loads of empty shops.
If the A414 bypassed the town, then sanity could prevail for the real local traffic.
Reply ID 47215
quote:Most of the traffic goes past without entering anyway - that's the reason the roads are so busy. Moving the passing traffic elsewhere wound't make any difference the the economic wellbeing of the town as it contributes nothing anyway. If anything it might improve it because people would know they can come here without having to put up with the congestion.
Originally posted by Tigger
Yep, the whole point of a Bypass is that you go past without entering and that would kill the town.
Reply ID 47216
Ok, well neither of us have any facts that proves anything either way, so perhaps best to disagree on this one. However I will reserve the right to come back and say i told you so if and when we ever get a bypass. I also dont buy the argument that people stay away due to traffic - simply because the traffic in town isnt actually that bad, and as long as you avoid 8.30-9 and 5-5.30 then you're fine.
Reply ID 47218
I'd suppose most of Hertford shoppers are Hertfordians anyway, even if drinkers come in from elsewhere. For me the issue is that Hertford is what it is, not just because of what is within it's confines, but by virtue of what surrounds it. I don't want to live on an isolated island surrounded by roads which don't come here. If I did, I'd go to Thunderidge or Tonwell or Hoddesdon. I lived in Hoddesdon when the bypass was built. It changed the character of the town rapidly, just as Gasgoigne Way did to Hertford. I want to live in a town, a proper town, not a sleepy backwater or twee housing estate that is no more that a signpost on a six lane highway to somewhere else.
Reply ID 47224
quote:4pm isn't so clever either when the 4x4 brigade enter the fray to pick up Jade and Jack from school.
Originally posted by codek2
Ok, well neither of us have any facts that proves anything either way, so perhaps best to disagree on this one. However I will reserve the right to come back and say i told you so if and when we ever get a bypass. I also dont buy the argument that people stay away due to traffic - simply because the traffic in town isnt actually that bad, and as long as you avoid 8.30-9 and 5-5.30 then you're fine.
Reply ID 47316
quote:You mean the residents are making the roads busy at school time, causing delays to the out of town communters....how dare they! [;)]
Originally posted by James007quote:4pm isn't so clever either when the 4x4 brigade enter the fray to pick up Jade and Jack from school.
Originally posted by codek2
Ok, well neither of us have any facts that proves anything either way, so perhaps best to disagree on this one. However I will reserve the right to come back and say i told you so if and when we ever get a bypass. I also dont buy the argument that people stay away due to traffic - simply because the traffic in town isnt actually that bad, and as long as you avoid 8.30-9 and 5-5.30 then you're fine.
Reply ID 47328
Could they build a longer "cut and cover" tunnel through the fields south of Hertford. They would be returned to their original state afterwards, so no-one could complain. It should help keep the costs down being only cut and cover. Downside: how long would it need to be? Would it be much longer? However, having said that, I definitely like the idea of the TFH underground line. Are there branch lines in the plans, e.g. up to Bengeo, to each major school, and county hall? Tesco would probably merit it's own stop (as would Sainsburys when they come). Everyone knows teenagers don't have legs, so there would need to be separate late-night bike friendly stops at the new skate park, and next door at the children's playground. (They'd be like Leicester Square and Covent garden stops in London, but on a much smaller scale). Now... whilst pondering all that, I just had a NEW idea.... What about building simple chair-lifts up to Bengeo, and up the other side of the valley to Simon Balle. They would need no tunnels digging or train drivers for that matter. They could meet at a central location in the town centre, where those transferring could swap from one to the other without walking. They would be constantly running at peak times, so you just grab the next empty seat (like on Ski lifts). They would have a sensor out of peak times, so that they only moved when someone got on. We just need a location for the central changeover. If it was a success, then the scheme could be extended to cover Hertford North & Sele, and to County Hall & Richard Hale. I think we could re-market ourselves as a major tourist attraction with facilities like that. We could become the Saas-Fee of England (Matlock has the cable car market already covered). In fact, it would be only a small move on the following year to buy in some big snow machines, and create some pistes. eg. a black run down the "rat run"... avoid the parked cars for extra danger! The alpine cross-country forest run would come through the trees from Warren Park Road down into Hartham. I can't see anyone who could possibly object to plans like that!
Reply ID 47338
No objection here BengeoBloke. Only a minor thought, would this see us with an influx of European ski seekers and thus finding ourselves undeveloping the concept of queuing? Oh and would Baroosh be full of germans dancing on the tables in their ski boots singing "i'm climbing up the sunshine mountain"? however i do know a tasty ski instructor called annabella in Austria we could employ!
Reply ID 47340
On the subject of the school run, perhaps an outright ban on cars around the school area would help, and a bus service from the outskirts to the schools put in place and paid for by the town council? Herts County council only put on busses for pupils living 2 (or 3?) or more miles away from the school. This happened at my school in Bishops Stortford - the car park was for teachers cars only, and the town council applied "residents only" permit parking all around the grounds. The problem is also that many sixth formers now drive to school - I admit, I was guilty on that front having to commute from Thundridge daily (it was cheaper to drive than get on the Herts Council bus!!!), but I always had a full car of people. We had to park 10 minutes walk from school. It encouraged those with bus passes to take the bus rather than drive and congestion around the school really reduced. If all the Hertford schools collaborated and decided on a set date (say, September back to school time), encouraged walking and provided a bus service, Im sure the traffic in the town would go down.
Reply ID 47343
quote:An improvement surely......?
Originally posted by Richie
Oh and would Baroosh be full of germans dancing on the tables in their ski boots singing "i'm climbing up the sunshine mountain"?
Reply ID 47832
quote:I think that TFH should buy the underpasses to ensure there constant flooded state! earlier last week i was actually able to use one on foot!!! that cant be correct can it or are we soon to be told that we are in the grip of a drought?
Originally posted by David Yatesquote:Aha, the Hertford Underground (Transport for Hertford) plan. I understand that there will be a 'Circle' line around Fore Street, with stations at Kebab East and Kebab North. There were plans for stations called 'Horse' in between the 'White' and 'Black' pubs but I understand that the flooding of the underpass was making the engineering work much more difficult than expected. A short term solution would be a 'raft' or 'small boat' transfer, but I'm not expecting miracles. Next discussions for TFH are expected over several beers in a pub near you...
This would not work as it will conflict with the future plans for the Hertford Underground Train System. I think David Yates saw some of the original plans for the lines that would service Hertford town centre.
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