Topic ID 3060
Why don't the council just flatten the area and seed it. Removing the the mounds that the bike riders use will make the area less appealing. Surely it is worth sending in some heavy plant for a few days.
Reply ID 44096
quote:Would they be they allowed to if its privately owned?
Originally posted by Ewoowar
Why don't the council just flatten the area and seed it. Removing the the mounds that the bike riders use will make the area less appealing. Surely it is worth sending in some heavy plant for a few days.
Reply ID 44099
quote:It's not theirs to flatten!
Originally posted by Ewoowar
Why don't the council just flatten the area and seed it. Removing the the mounds that the bike riders use will make the area less appealing. Surely it is worth sending in some heavy plant for a few days.
Reply ID 44100
quote:So the logical step is to contact the owners and ask them to flatten the mounds and to provide fencing sufficient to secure the site. Failing that, the council should offer to remove the mounds themselves. Why should the land owner object to that?
Originally posted by Stevequote:It's not theirs to flatten!
Originally posted by Ewoowar
Why don't the council just flatten the area and seed it. Removing the the mounds that the bike riders use will make the area less appealing. Surely it is worth sending in some heavy plant for a few days.
Reply ID 44101
quote:I think the mounds along the edge of the site are an anti-traveller bund, which stops most things except... er... motorcyclists. Replace the mounds with a fence and you may deter the motorcyclists, but you may make access for those with larger, sturdier vehicles a little more attractive.
Originally posted by Ewoowarquote:So the logical step is to contact the owners and ask them to flatten the mounds and to provide fencing sufficient to secure the site. Failing that, the council should offer to remove the mounds themselves. Why should the land owner object to that?
Originally posted by Stevequote:It's not theirs to flatten!
Originally posted by Ewoowar
Why don't the council just flatten the area and seed it. Removing the the mounds that the bike riders use will make the area less appealing. Surely it is worth sending in some heavy plant for a few days.
Reply ID 44103
I assume you're familiar with the background... http://www.hertford.net/issues/sports.asp Also worth checking out, from The Mercury: [url="http://www.hertford.net/issues/sports.asp fear biker menace[/url]
Reply ID 44105
quote:Councils use mounds and ditches to keep travellers out of many sites. It is not the boundary mounds that are a problem. It is the mounds inside the site.
Originally posted by Aellequote:I think the mounds along the edge of the site are an anti-traveller bund, which stops most things except... er... motorcyclists. Replace the mounds with a fence and you may deter the motorcyclists, but you may make access for those with larger, sturdier vehicles a little more attractive.
Originally posted by Ewoowarquote:So the logical step is to contact the owners and ask them to flatten the mounds and to provide fencing sufficient to secure the site. Failing that, the council should offer to remove the mounds themselves. Why should the land owner object to that?
Originally posted by Stevequote:It's not theirs to flatten!
Originally posted by Ewoowar
Why don't the council just flatten the area and seed it. Removing the the mounds that the bike riders use will make the area less appealing. Surely it is worth sending in some heavy plant for a few days.
Reply ID 44114
If someone wanted to get rid of motorcyclists from the area maybe they could 'sleep walk' over there in the middle of the night and 'accidentally' cover the place in nails, screws and other puncture inducing implements!
Reply ID 44118
There are a couple of mounds that you could flatten. However, there are a lot of hills and dips that the bikers use. To flatten them would be a major landscaping exercise. I would guess that it would cost hundreds of thousands of pounds. You would also need to chop down a hell of a lot of trees.
Reply ID 44223
quote:If you use those sentiments to address social and criminal problems then maybe we should also close all high street banks to discourage bank robbers and scrape pavements so nobody can park on them. I think what's needed is the police to carry out their threats relentlessly. All the police have done so far is allow the bikers to make a fool of them!
Why don't the council just flatten the area and seed it. Removing the the mounds that the bike riders use will make the area less appealing. Surely it is worth sending in some heavy plant for a few days.
Reply ID 44224
quote:Your reply is ill-considered...... High street banks serve a purpose. Archers Spring in it's current state is not there to serve anyone. Remove Archers Spring or flatten the mounds (thereby removing the attraction for the bikers) will affect nobody but those causing a nuisance. Remove the high street banks and you impact millions upon millions of ordinary people going about their normal, law abiding business.
Originally posted by Forbesquote:If you use those sentiments to address social and criminal problems then maybe we should also close all high street banks to discourage bank robbers and scrape pavements so nobody can park on them. I think what's needed is the police to carry out their threats relentlessly. All the police have done so far is allow the bikers to make a fool of them!
Why don't the council just flatten the area and seed it. Removing the the mounds that the bike riders use will make the area less appealing. Surely it is worth sending in some heavy plant for a few days.
Reply ID 44225
My point is in more general terms Ewoowar[:)] There seems to be a general trend these days in doing anything and everything to dissuade anti social/criminal behaviour rather then just punishing the culprits to provide a real deterrent. I think removing temptation solves nothing long term.
Reply ID 44229
quote:There are many things which were a "bit of fun", but have since become "anti-social behaviour" though. We used to have bikes as adolescents too and were always on the look out for a bit of interesting terrain which was not otherwise used. The difference was that our parents didn't buy purpose built machines for us. We built out of what we could salvage and re-cycle and consequently, there were less of us to create annoyance.
Originally posted by Forbes
My point is in more general terms Ewoowar[:)] There seems to be a general trend these days in doing anything and everything to dissuade anti social/criminal behaviour rather then just punishing the culprits to provide a real deterrent. I think removing temptation solves nothing long term.
Reply ID 44231
As I said earlier, flattening the two mounds wouldn't be enough to make it less fun on Archer's Spring. The area is huge and, due to the geological make up of the area, is full of varying degrees of terrain. The bikers also ride through woods. Should the trees be chopped down as well? It would be on the same scale as reclaiming the land at Canary Wharf. As Forbes stated, the police need to be seen to be acting on their warnings.
Reply ID 47656
I thought I'd start this topic up again as I have an interest. I live on Sele Farm & am as concerned that the land at Archers Spring is on the shortlist for a gypsy site. Those with long memories may remember the last illegal encampment there about 15 years ago & the disgusting mess they left behind when they were removed. I've just returned from a run over there & whilst it was quiet (it's pouring with rain at present), I thought I'd have a good look at the damage the bikers have caused to the land there. Although it's obvious that a few dog walkers go on the land, it appears that any casual walkers have been put off by the many quagmires that now exist there. The huge mounds are totally out of keeping with the area & I'd imagine that when the bikers are on there, it can be very intimidating for locals. I think that Sele Farm residents & particularly those that overlook this area from Bentley Road & the Ridgeway should be very concerned & should at the least write to the local council to find out whether there is any way of legally stopping the bikers, so the land can be returned to some sort of normality. I'm not totally anti-bikers - I just don't think it's fair that they have unlimited access to that area, particularly in the summer months, when people are trying to enjoy some peace & quiet. Perhaps if it can't be stopped, it can be limited to a couple of hours a day. Does anyone know who I can get in touch with to start the debate?
Reply ID 47657
I think you'll find the debate started long ago! Herts Police issued the following press release back in July: Hertford Safer Neighbourhoods Team are going to give bikers a final warning to stay off private property in Hertford, or they could face arrest. Police are erecting signs on the land known locally as Archers Springs on the B1000 Welwyn Road informing the public that it is private property and those found on the land will be reported to police and dealt with. The erection of the signs follows years of anti social behaviour on the land by bikers - who use the land. Local residents have been keeping anti-social behaviour diaries recording incidents and police have issued several Section 59 warnings to bikers on the site and explained that the land was private property. As far as I'm aware, Archers Spring wasn't identified as a site for gypsies or travellers. In fact there were no such sites in Hertford. Maybe this should be posted as a new topic. Useful Link (East Herts District Council website): [url="http://www.eastherts.gov.uk/index.jsp?articleid=5560"]Accommodation Needs of Gypsies and Travellers in Northern and Eastern Hertfordshire[/url]
Reply ID 47754
Steve, Thanks for the additional info. I've just been trying to find an article that was in the Mercury a few months ago which had a list of about 20 potential sites. Archers Spring was on the list, but not at the top because of it's green belt status. As I've been unable to locate such a list on the East Herts District Council website, I'm guessing that the Mercury may have concocted this list for a story. Even so, I think I'll send Herts Police a copy of their Press release & ask them how difficult it is for them to spot the white vans parked on Welwyn Road every day of the week with the bikes inside. Thanks again
Reply ID 47756
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Reply ID 47759
What is "antisocial behaviour"? It seems to be an extension of power to allow people to be prosecuted for things not normally covered by law and with indeterminate boundries. For instance, horse riding churns up ground and makes walking difficult too. Is riding a horse anti-social or is it just motorcycles? If enough people complained, could anything become "anti-social", however innocent?
Reply ID 50834
quote:Following numerous emails I sent to various council departments concerning the nuisance motorbikes using the land at Archers Spring, I recently received this interesting response from East Herts Council; The local PCSO has advised that the piece of land behind the community centre (that backs onto Bentley Road/Archers Spring) is owned by a company called Next Generation. They are planning to develop the site and build a Leisure Centre, with work starting in Autumn this year (provisionally). The delay with this development has been over the access from the B1000. I received this information in February & have been trying to get some sort of response from Next Generation, but to date, they have not responded to any of my emails. Assuming the information is correct - perhaps the construction of a Leisure Centre would solve the problem of the nuisance motorbikes, but until then, the PCSO offered the following advice; The police do carry out specific operations to tackle the bike nuisance, but this is dependent on resources. We would encourage anyone that witnesses bikers there to call the police on 0845 33 00 222 - this is the non-emergency number. The more reports that come in will help with the allocation of resources at key times. A number of bikers have received Section 50 warnings & the police are able to seize bikes once a warning has been issued. If I do manage to get a statement from Next Generation concerning the proposed construction of a Leisure Centre, I'll post it here.
Originally posted by Steve Herts Police issued the following press release back in July: Hertford Safer Neighbourhoods Team are going to give bikers a final warning to stay off private property in Hertford, or they could face arrest. Police are erecting signs on the land known locally as Archers Springs on the B1000 Welwyn Road informing the public that it is private property and those found on the land will be reported to police and dealt with. The erection of the signs follows years of anti social behaviour on the land by bikers - who use the land. Local residents have been keeping anti-social behaviour diaries recording incidents and police have issued several Section 59 warnings to bikers on the site and explained that the land was private property.
Reply ID 50837
quote:It might also be worth giving the Mercury a heads up. The media sometimes have more luck getting information out of companies.
Originally posted by Muddyquote:Following numerous emails I sent to various council departments concerning the nuisance motorbikes using the land at Archers Spring, I recently received this interesting response from East Herts Council; The local PCSO has advised that the piece of land behind the community centre (that backs onto Bentley Road/Archers Spring) is owned by a company called Next Generation. They are planning to develop the site and build a Leisure Centre, with work starting in Autumn this year (provisionally). The delay with this development has been over the access from the B1000. I received this information in February & have been trying to get some sort of response from Next Generation, but to date, they have not responded to any of my emails. Assuming the information is correct - perhaps the construction of a Leisure Centre would solve the problem of the nuisance motorbikes, but until then, the PCSO offered the following advice; The police do carry out specific operations to tackle the bike nuisance, but this is dependent on resources. We would encourage anyone that witnesses bikers there to call the police on 0845 33 00 222 - this is the non-emergency number. The more reports that come in will help with the allocation of resources at key times. A number of bikers have received Section 50 warnings & the police are able to seize bikes once a warning has been issued. If I do manage to get a statement from Next Generation concerning the proposed construction of a Leisure Centre, I'll post it here.
Originally posted by Steve Herts Police issued the following press release back in July: Hertford Safer Neighbourhoods Team are going to give bikers a final warning to stay off private property in Hertford, or they could face arrest. Police are erecting signs on the land known locally as Archers Springs on the B1000 Welwyn Road informing the public that it is private property and those found on the land will be reported to police and dealt with. The erection of the signs follows years of anti social behaviour on the land by bikers - who use the land. Local residents have been keeping anti-social behaviour diaries recording incidents and police have issued several Section 59 warnings to bikers on the site and explained that the land was private property.
Reply ID 50838
Did you two (Muddy and Brockman) not know that Next Generation (previously Countrywide Leisure) have proposed putting a leisure centre on there for the last 15 years?
Reply ID 50839
... or maybe read this thread from the beginning, including the link to Discover Hertford's coverage of the issue... http://www.hertford.net/issues/sports.asp
Reply ID 50850
quote:Which (as I interpret it), unless there has been any progress, the extended planning permission will be up at the end of this year.
Originally posted by Steve including the link to Discover Hertford's coverage of the issue... http://www.hertford.net/issues/sports.asp
Reply ID 50970
Drove by B1000 entrance today and there is now a Herts constabulary sign on top of a high post. I just wonder who will take much notice of it or how long it will stay erected.
Reply ID 50971
I haven't heard any bikes today... but then again I've had music on.
Reply ID 61912
Pastthe site at 9.15 this morning and saw a police car and a lone policeman standing on the bank and spying the land. The warning sign they erected is long gone Don’t know how often they attend the site but I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve passed and seen cars, trailers & vans unloading or loading motor bikes. Do people still make complaints about these or do they no longer bother. Have the police ever prosecuted any bikers for being on there?
Reply ID 62941
The Archer's Spring debate will carry on into infinity or until the Police actually arrest someone for trespass and criminal damage. Too much paperwork............?
Reply ID 62945
I don't think Trespass is a crime [?]
Reply ID 62948
Might it be a good idea to talk to David Lloyd's insurers? I wonder if they'd have a view on the current [mis]use of the site.
Reply ID 62954
The Archer Spring Petition will be presented to the Town Council at the Town Meeting this coming Wednesday 29th April 2009 at 7.30pm at the Castle Hall Hertford. Support the petition. Go to the town meeting on Wednesday and let your views about the Archer Spring site be known to the Town Council.
Reply ID 62962
quote:What petition?
Originally posted by deeser
The Archer Spring Petition will be presented to the Town Council at the Town Meeting this coming Wednesday 29th April 2009 at 7.30pm at the Castle Hall Hertford. Support the petition. Go to the town meeting on Wednesday and let your views about the Archer Spring site be known to the Town Council.
Reply ID 62964
quote:Petition for what deeser?
Originally posted by deeser
The Archer Spring Petition will be presented to the Town Council at the Town Meeting this coming Wednesday 29th April 2009 at 7.30pm at the Castle Hall Hertford. Support the petition. Go to the town meeting on Wednesday and let your views about the Archer Spring site be known to the Town Council.
Reply ID 62965
I'm so sorry Steve & James, I didn't make myself clear previously. I have absolutely no idea what the petition is for...I received a flyer through my door today with exactly what I've written above printed on it....so I'm no wiser than you. However I did of course want to know what it was all about and ''googled'' archer spring and found this topic on here, so I felt I should inform you all! I am presuming of course that it's some kind of petition to prevent those nuisance motorbikes from driving on the area, but I'm surprised at the mention of a petition, because I certainly have never signed one, nor my neighbours, and neither have we been asked...and we live very close to the field!!
Reply ID 62967
quote:Is there nothing on the flyer to suggest who distributed it? Or who was organising the petition? Or where it could be signed?
Originally posted by deeser
I'm so sorry Steve & James, I didn't make myself clear previously. I have absolutely no idea what the petition is for...I received a flyer through my door today with exactly what I've written above printed on it....so I'm no wiser than you. However I did of course want to know what it was all about and ''googled'' archer spring and found this topic on here, so I felt I should inform you all! I am presuming of course that it's some kind of petition to prevent those nuisance motorbikes from driving on the area, but I'm surprised at the mention of a petition, because I certainly have never signed one, nor my neighbours, and neither have we been asked...and we live very close to the field!!
Reply ID 62970
quote:Why would you want anyone to sign a petition when you have "no idea" about what it means? You don't own a piggy by any chance, do you?
Originally posted by deeser
I'm so sorry Steve & James, I didn't make myself clear previously. I have absolutely no idea what the petition is for...I received a flyer through my door today with exactly what I've written above printed on it....so I'm no wiser than you. However I did of course want to know what it was all about and ''googled'' archer spring and found this topic on here, so I felt I should inform you all!
Reply ID 62971
I'm not sure I would be quite as confrontational as James007, but it does seem strange that we are being asked to support a petition by someone who then says they have no idea what the petition is for. [?]
Reply ID 62974
I seem to be confusing everyone. I wasn't asking anyone to sign the petition. The petition has nothing whatsoever to do with me! I got this flyer through my door today (just looked at the tiny print at the bottom it says it's published on behalf of Hertford Ware & district Branch labour party). ...I had no idea what the petition was for , ( I didn't even know that the piece of ground near my home was called Archer Spring)...so I googled ''archer spring hertford'' and found this thread and simply thought you all would be interested in knowing about this petition!! Nothing more sinister than that, I thought I was being helpful to people who may know more than me what it's all about!!
Reply ID 62976
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v710/Martadelight/sele.jpg[/IMG]
Reply ID 62978
I've had a look at the local Labour party website at http://www.easthertslabour.org/hertford/hertfordindex.html and it's very amateurish, not to mention out-of-date. Some of the pages haven't been updated in six years! At one point they mention the failure to deliver a skate park! This flyer is similarly useless, giving no information whatsoever about the purpose of the petition, why we should support it or why it's being presented to the Town Council, who have no direct involvement in the site. Where did they get the signatures from? How come there's been no apparent press coverage? Why isn't it mentioned on their website? At the end of the day, this land is privately owned. The issue with bikers is down to poor management and security by the owners who appear to have little interest beyond maintaining the site as part of their balance sheet.
Reply ID 62979
Oh well, I s'pose if one were to be interested enough in the Archer Spring debate then it might be worth attending this meeting on Wednesday ! I can't imagine why someone has gone to the trouble of making flyers and taking the time to post them through everyones' door in the sele farm area, yet not give any fundamental contact details! I'd be interested tho' to hear the views of anyone who may actually attend Castle hall on Wednesday night!
Reply ID 62980
quote:Well, J.S.Page of 18 West Street HAS given contact details, so credit there. However, the fact remains that the purpose of and motivation for this poorly executed campaign is something of a mystery.
Originally posted by deeser
Oh well, I s'pose if one were to be interested enough in the Archer Spring debate then it might be worth attending this meeting on Wednesday ! I can't imagine why someone has gone to the trouble of making flyers and taking the time to post them through everyones' door in the sele farm area, yet not give any fundamental contact details! I'd be interested tho' to hear the views of anyone who may actually attend Castle hall on Wednesday night!
Reply ID 62985
quote:Only because they have to have an electoral imprint by law.
Originally posted by Steve
Well, J.S.Page of 18 West Street HAS given contact details, so credit there.
Reply ID 63011
quote:Trespass is a civil issue but becomes a crime if there is for example criminal damage
Originally posted by ~Sarah~
I don't think Trespass is a crime [?]
Reply ID 63012
quote:Wrong. Trespass is a criminal matter once an individual or individuals encroach onto land that is not property owned by the individual or individuals encroaching onto such land. Land owned by the deed holder is considered as private and therefore, invitations for entry and use are only invited, and accepted, by the holder of the deed.
Originally posted by tiger.1000quote:Trespass is a civil issue but becomes a crime if there is for example criminal damage
Originally posted by ~Sarah~
I don't think Trespass is a crime [?]
Reply ID 63016
Hi James please could you tell us where this piece of law can be found or how do you know that this is correct?
Reply ID 63017
[url="http://www.desktoplawyer.co.uk/dt/browse/law/index.cfm?fuseaction=ViewContent&sid=75920&aid=34460"]Desktoplawyer.co.uk: Trespassing[/url] [url="http://www.desktoplawyer.co.uk/dt/browse/law/index.cfm?fuseaction=ViewContent&sid=75920&aid=34460"]Desktoplawyer.co.uk: England: Trespassing[/url] [url="http://www.desktoplawyer.co.uk/dt/browse/law/index.cfm?fuseaction=ViewContent&sid=75920&aid=34460"]Desktoplawyer.co.uk: Trespass[/url] "Trespassing is usually a civil wrong and dealt with accordingly. Certain forms of Trespassing, generally those which involve Travellers, Gypsies, Raves and Hunt Saboteurs, are covered by Criminal Law. There are offences under the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 Section 61 and 62 of trespassing on land and trespassing with vehicles. With this in mind, police attendance may be required. Otherwise the owner of the land may need to deal by way of injunction." [url="http://www.desktoplawyer.co.uk/dt/browse/law/index.cfm?fuseaction=ViewContent&sid=75920&aid=34460"]Desktoplawyer.co.uk: Justice and Public Order Act 1994: Collective Trespass or Nuisance on Land[/url]
Reply ID 63020
Thanks Steve, it looks like James007 is wrong and Tiger.1000 is right and this was why I raised the question because the way Tiger said it was the way I always understood this law and this is a civil offence and only becomes a criminal offence when a criminal offence is committed on said land.
Reply ID 63032
Hi night owl. Section 69 allows the land owner to erect a sign stating 'no access to the site'. Unless an agengy wishes to enter with court authority, anyone else entering without the permission of the land owner is deemed to be a trespasser, thus then becoming a criminal matter under the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994. Which ever way you look at it, an offence has been committed. What would be your feeling if I came onto your land without permission from you and sat on your lawn? Trespass? Criminal matter under the same act. That's why people generally don't do these sorts of things. Section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986 is a different thing altogether. Civil matters tend to occur when your tree's roots 'trespass' onto your neighbour's land or the creeping ivy gets creepier. Last time I drove past Archer's Spring and actually took notice, which admittedly was a while ago, the owner of the land had erected two signs at each end of the roadside area and a smaller one in the centre of the anti-traveller mound. That falls under Section 69 and becomes a criminal matter as does removal of the signs by a third party who has not been instructed by the land/deed owner or by an agency who has legal permission to do so.
Reply ID 63042
Hi James Section 69 that you refer to refers to aggravated trespass and not trespass and the same goes for section 5 1986 with trespass and disorderly conduct and not trespass, which is why you will see signs that read Trespasses will be prosecuted and not Trespasses will be arrested with the exception of government land, I am a land owner and under the law I have the right to ask anyone to leave and if they refuse then I would make things very dodgy for them as I use my land for shooting ect, ho ho ho Trespass is a civil matter not criminal.
Reply ID 63043
I see no mention of signs in Section 69
Reply ID 63046
Section 69 does Steve. Follow it from 68 and you will find it. Once a movement on to land that is not owned by by the trespasser, this technically becomes a criminal act. As I said previously, if I come and sit on your lawn, doing nothing other than sit there, it is not a civil matter. It is criminal. night owl expresses a desire to make 'things very dodgy for them as I use my land for shooting' which in itself is actually a carefully stated suggestion. He can 'ho ho ho' all day long (which in itself must be criminal by now) but Archer's Spring is owned wholly by a company who have the right to stop anyone from entering the area, by law.
Reply ID 63050
quote:Nope, no mention of "signs" in Section 69 (which incidentally deals with aggravated trespass, which IS a criminal offence). Take a look yourself... http://www.opsi.gov.uk/Acts/acts1994/ukpga_19940033_en_8 Also take a look at... http://www.opsi.gov.uk/Acts/acts1994/ukpga_19940033_en_8
Originally posted by James007
Section 69 does Steve. Follow it from 68 and you will find it.
quote:A shame they don't enforce it.
Originally posted by James007
...Archer's Spring is owned wholly by a company who have the right to stop anyone from entering the area, by law.
Reply ID 63051
I disagree. Trespass is a TORT and a civil matter and only becomes a criminal matter when individuals who trespass commit damage or theft;then it becomes a criminal matter. GOOGLE countryside law is a start...
Reply ID 63053
Steve: The offence, under Section 68 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, goes hand-in-hand with powers to direct trespassers away from the land, under Section 69. Failure to comply with such a direction or to return to the land within 3 months of being given such a direction is an offence. I'll grant you that the word 'signs' does not appear. The point is that the owners can enforce the Section. Civil law is a straight-forward dispute between two parties that is of no significant public concern.
Reply ID 63054
quote:... and both Sections 68 and 69 deal with aggravated trespass, as opposed to straightforward (civil) trespass. I recommend you read the other links I've posted that illustrate this. Aggravated trespass is where trespassers either intimidate, disrupt or obstruct persons engaging in lawful activity on the land (Section 68.1)
Originally posted by James007
Steve: The offence, under Section 68 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, goes hand-in-hand with powers to direct trespassers away from the land, under Section 69. Failure to comply with such a direction or to return to the land within 3 months of being given such a direction is an offence. I'll grant you that the word 'signs' does not appear. The point is that the owners can enforce the Section. Civil law is a straight-forward dispute between two parties that is of no significant public concern.
Reply ID 63056
Slight deviation...anyone know the law regarding dogs on public footpaths? Is it correct that recent legislation states that at all times they must be on a lead ?
Reply ID 63058
quote:Off-topic I'm afraid, but I'll give it 24 hours to see if you get an answer. [:)]
Originally posted by tiger.1000
Slight deviation...anyone know the law regarding dogs on public footpaths? Is it correct that recent legislation states that at all times they must be on a lead ?
Reply ID 63059
Lawful activity is one that is invited by the owner of the land. If the land owner does not invite one on to the land/property, this is considered unlawful, and therefore criminal. Civil law involves disputes over area ownership; such as a dog walking on someone's property. If tiger.1000 is responsible for the footpath, he or she can take necessary action to remove dogs from his or her property whether a lead is used or not, under criminal law.
Reply ID 63060
James you are way off base, sorry that you do not know the difference between Trespass and Aggravated Trespass these are two different things and something unlawful is not always a criminal matter but something unlawful can come under civil law as well and the county courts which deal with civil law can incarcerate a person, James you have been reading the wrong piece of law on Trespass and have got hold of the wrong information, and I can open fire any time I dam please on my land, trespassers or no trespassers and I would be in my legal right to do so as long as I do not shoot the trespasser ho ho ho James you are WRONG should have gone to a better school like one approved by the council ho ho ho.
Reply ID 63061
quote:Looks like we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one [:)] In the meantime, any solicitors out there with anything to add please feel free to chip in.
Originally posted by James007
Lawful activity is one that is invited by the owner of the land. If the land owner does not invite one on to the land/property, this is considered unlawful, and therefore criminal. Civil law involves disputes over area ownership; such as a dog walking on someone's property. If tiger.1000 is responsible for the footpath, he or she can take necessary action to remove dogs from his or her property whether a lead is used or not, under criminal law.
Reply ID 63062
This thread is damn good entertainment. What's it about by the way?! Right, read it all - a council meeting regarding the land. Any news on this?
Reply ID 63072
24 hours ! Come on now ! This could lead (metaphor) to much more interesting topics. How about a week? Your dogged (metaphor) stance on this may prevent some great revelations on trespass and could indeed impede the flow of information previously withheld and unleash (metaphor) realms of goodies...... ! ! !
Reply ID 63077
OK, how about we test it. Next time anyone is driving past the site and sees that there are people driving quad bikes or motorbikes, call the police and see if they are interested. I'm pretty sure the sign that was erected (and then removed) had a telephone number for Hertford police. I guess from that, that it is considered a criminal matter.
Reply ID 63115
WHOA There Everybody... Something has just struck me. All this moaning about some Chavs on motorbikes is clouding the real issue here. Just imagine IF the proposed development on this land actually goes ahead. A David Lloyd Leisure Centre would mean a proliferation of swarthy individuals dressed in various shades of pastel slacks with Lacoste sweaters draped over their shoulders sporting fake tans and whitened teeth. That's right guys, If we are not careful Hertford could soon be over run by Cliff Richard clones!
Reply ID 63117
Pound to a penny the "proposed" leisure centre will never get off the ground. The canny owner is just awaiting the day when Mr Brown or his successor decides the time has come for Sele Farm to expand. Just a matter of time and not a bad idea. On the whole a nice bunch of people there and we could do with more of the same. Queues in the Co-op may become unbearable and the ridulous car parking area at Fleming crescent may need a re-vamp. Any info on dogs on leads yet?
Reply ID 63135
More news http://www.hertfordshiremercury.co.uk/hertfordshiremercury/displayarticle.asp?id=413456
Reply ID 63183
Just driven past there today and there's some kind of sign high up on a pole.
Reply ID 63213
[img]../images/forum/archers_spring_sign.jpg[/img]
Reply ID 63214
It’ll be interesting to see if this new sign makes any difference. The last one didn’t. It vanished within days.[:p]
Reply ID 63231
I still think this is all a big fuss about nothing. The land owner has to be seen to not allow people to use his land in case they injure themselves leaving the land owner liable. Other than that the users of Archers Spring are doing very little harm and as such nobody can really be bothered. Except perhaps the local Labour party who think they can score a few political brownie points by stirring up the locals. If the police really wanted to take action then they just need to send a patrol car up every weekend with a camera. Some of the bikers even turn up in vans emblazonned with the owners company name and phone number - it doesn't need Sherlock Holmes to work that one out.
Reply ID 63232
"I still think this is all a big fuss about nothing." I think you're right..........Most of the locals aren't that bothered either, Some even have gates fitted at the bottom of the garden to enable easy motorcycle access to the land in question
Reply ID 63352
I was heading passed there early this afternoon. I saw a couple of vans parked up in the distance as I approached from the Sele farm end. As I got closer I was expecting to see the useal motor bike parade but as I drew level with the new sign I saw no less then 3 Land rover’s in convoy disappearing over the first mound! Is this a first or has 4 wheel drive’s now the norm? The new sign has certainly made a big impression[:p]
Reply ID 63357
quote:The Mercury reported on Friday that the owners have agreed to flatten the mounds. I wonder if it was contractors you saw.
Originally posted by Eyeone
I was heading passed there early this afternoon. I saw a couple of vans parked up in the distance as I approached from the Sele farm end. As I got closer I was expecting to see the useal motor bike parade but as I drew level with the new sign I saw no less then 3 Land rover’s in convoy disappearing over the first mound! Is this a first or has 4 wheel drive’s now the norm? The new sign has certainly made a big impression[:p]
Reply ID 63359
It sounds like a well used, though unofficial, civic amenity to me. It is, accidentally, a "sports centre" and catering for a sport for which there is an obvious demand.
Reply ID 63380
I suppose that’s a possibility Steve but at the speed I saw them climbing over the heap it looked more like an off road rally!
Reply ID 63381
quote:Quite often,on Sundays,there are land rovers and road legal quads that use the site,I have seen them over there for at least the last six months
Originally posted by Eyeone
I was heading passed there early this afternoon. I saw a couple of vans parked up in the distance as I approached from the Sele farm end. As I got closer I was expecting to see the useal motor bike parade but as I drew level with the new sign I saw no less then 3 Land rover’s in convoy disappearing over the first mound! Is this a first or has 4 wheel drive’s now the norm? The new sign has certainly made a big impression[:p]
Reply ID 63385
Don't these saddos have anything better to do than to drive in some cases hundreds of miles to drive an a muddy field? Are there no other muddy fields anywhere else they could drive on? Maybe David Lloyd should charge a fiver to drive on his muddy field.
Reply ID 63387
I was thinking that Aubend. What ever happened to peaceful Sunday afternoons How do the Land rovers get onto the site? Do they enter from the main road or have they created their own entrance? On the other hand I see a business opportunity. MUDDY FIELDS R US.co.uk[8D] (Featured field of the week is Archers spring)[:D]
Reply ID 63393
Calling people "saddos" just because their hobbies differ is, well, sad in itself, regardless as to the legalities of where they choose to do it. No doubt they find you rather "sad" as well.
Reply ID 63394
This entry level motorsport isn't a new thing. We used to belt around Granny Walker's on bikes thirty-five years ago. There are several commercial sites offering this facility nowadays, but sadly too few to meet demand and some distance away. There's one next to the A12 opposite the turning for Walberswick in Suffolk and at Thurrock. Both are so well used that booking is required. The demand is there and always was. As for "saddos", is it more cool to dress in purple Lycra to ride a bicycle thats bolted to the floor of an industrial unit (sports/fitness centres)?
Reply ID 63396
"We used to belt around Granny Walker's on bikes thirty-five years ago." Me too !
Reply ID 63398
quote:Exactly. There's obviously a business opportunity though. Problem is, it's a very NIMBY type of facility.
Originally posted by shunt
This entry level motorsport isn't a new thing. We used to belt around Granny Walker's on bikes thirty-five years ago. There are several commercial sites offering this facility nowadays, but sadly too few to meet demand and some distance away. There's one next to the A12 opposite the turning for Walberswick in Suffolk and at Thurrock. Both are so well used that booking is required. The demand is there and always was. As for "saddos", is it more cool to dress in purple Lycra to ride a bicycle thats bolted to the floor of an industrial unit (sports/fitness centres)?
Reply ID 63406
quote:It is sad because it serves no purpose other than to annoy other people and to look macho without requiring any particular skill or physical effort from the participant. Fair enough if they were mountain biking or bmxing on the field - doing something physically beneficial and requiring some fitness and effort. Driving motor powered vehicles around a field is the preserve of the lazy show off.
Originally posted by steven
Calling people "saddos" just because their hobbies differ is, well, sad in itself, regardless as to the legalities of where they choose to do it. No doubt they find you rather "sad" as well.
Reply ID 63411
quote:Actually a recognised motorsport, developed by returning servicemen from WW1 and one in which Britain does consistently well, particularly in the youth class. Many of the extremly skilled, young champions, learned through just such activities, as have many of our the mechanics and engineers. BMX bikes were marketed in the 80's because dads couldn't be bothered to teach kids how to build and maintain a proper "trackie" from scratch, as we did. BMX stands for "Bicycle Motorcross", derived from the the original, powered form of "Motocross" which has a long history and is responsible for the developement of the frame, brakes and suspension designs now used in BMX and mountain bikes.
Originally posted by aubendquote:It is sad because it serves no purpose other than to annoy other people and to look macho without requiring any particular skill or physical effort from the participant. Fair enough if they were mountain biking or bmxing on the field - doing something physically beneficial and requiring some fitness and effort. Driving motor powered vehicles around a field is the preserve of the lazy show off.
Originally posted by steven
Calling people "saddos" just because their hobbies differ is, well, sad in itself, regardless as to the legalities of where they choose to do it. No doubt they find you rather "sad" as well.
Reply ID 63413
quote:What an absolutely ridiculous thing to say. Clearly people that do track days are just trying to be "macho" and are lazy. You really ought to think about the things you post before you post them. You come across as a complete idiot.
Originally posted by aubend It is sad because it serves no purpose other than to annoy other people and to look macho without requiring any particular skill or physical effort from the participant. Fair enough if they were mountain biking or bmxing on the field - doing something physically beneficial and requiring some fitness and effort. Driving motor powered vehicles around a field is the preserve of the lazy show off.
Reply ID 63414
Surely the point is that they're being a bloody nuisance to the people who live in houses that surround the place. If I lived there I'd be furious at having my peaceful weekends ruined. The fact that serviceman returning from WW1 used to do it does not give it moral justification.
Reply ID 63415
quote:I get impression, it's not the activity, but the proximity to housing that is the problem.
Originally posted by dennismoore
Surely the point is that they're being a bloody nuisance to the people who live in houses that surround the place. If I lived there I'd be furious at having my peaceful weekends ruined. The fact that serviceman returning from WW1 used to do it does not give it moral justification.
Reply ID 63416
Nobody said it was justified, but calling people names just because their interests differ isn't on.
Reply ID 63427
I dont often agree with aubend , but yep , saddos .
Reply ID 63429
quote:Indeed that's true. One has to weigh nuisance against need though. Many residences would be more peaceful, if not near leisure facilties, gun clubs, school playgrounds, roads, railways supermarkets, factories, mechanised agriculture and airports etc., but we can't remove them all or ban everything. The historic reference was to demontrate that number of sites where bikes are used has deminished due to society's decreased tolerance. Perhaps if it was official, road standard silencers could be insisted upon. I agree with the point made earlier that a purpose built sports centre would be likely to be even more of a disruption to residents.
Originally posted by dennismoore
Surely the point is that they're being a bloody nuisance to the people who live in houses that surround the place. If I lived there I'd be furious at having my peaceful weekends ruined. The fact that serviceman returning from WW1 used to do it does not give it moral justification.
Reply ID 63432
Steven it seems you are hurt by my post. In a time of ecological realization and diminishing natural resources I feel that I am fully justified in calling people sad that come from miles around simply to operate vehicles with internal combustion engines for no purpose other than their own gratification and to the continual annoyance of others. Just as track day enthusiasts (such as yourself?) are wannabe weekend Ayrton Sennas. Get lives, get a productive hobby, save money, save a little bit of what's left of the environment.
Reply ID 63434
Um, I hate to be the one to point this out but when a hobby becomes "Productive" it is no longer a hobby. Ah has spoken
Reply ID 63436
If you approve of the activity or not is irrelevant. The point is it is illegal at this site and is annoying to the local residents there must be places that it is legal to carry on these activities presumably further away from peoples homes.
Reply ID 63437
quote:I'm not hurt by you at all. I see that anyone that does something you don't agree with is "sad", even if they're not bothering anyone else. How sad is that? Now that you're making personal attacks - I think you're a pathetic waste of air, and I can't stand your blinkered idiocy. I console myself with the fact that I'm not you.
Originally posted by aubend
Steven it seems you are hurt by my post. In a time of ecological realization and diminishing natural resources I feel that I am fully justified in calling people sad that come from miles around simply to operate vehicles with internal combustion engines for no purpose other than their own gratification and to the continual annoyance of others. Just as track day enthusiasts (such as yourself?) are wannabe weekend Ayrton Sennas. Get lives, get a productive hobby, save money, save a little bit of what's left of the environment.
Reply ID 63438
quote:There must be lots of centres across the country that cater specifically for this type of sport, but charge for the use of them. They use Archers spring for free- and yes they are annoying [:(!]
Originally posted by Marilyn
If you approve of the activity or not is irrelevant. The point is it is illegal at this site and is annoying to the local residents there must be places that it is legal to carry on these activities presumably further away from peoples homes.
Reply ID 63439
quote:I am sure you are right "charge for the use of them" being the relevant phrase.........
Originally posted by spacepiratequote:There must be lots of centres across the country that cater specifically for this type of sport, but charge for the use of them. They use Archers spring for free- and yes they are annoying [:(!]
Originally posted by Marilyn
If you approve of the activity or not is irrelevant. The point is it is illegal at this site and is annoying to the local residents there must be places that it is legal to carry on these activities presumably further away from peoples homes.
Reply ID 63446
quote:Essex Neanderthal beer bellied bald headed. Mmmmm petrol power. Sniff my exhaust fumes.
Originally posted by stevenquote:I'm not hurt by you at all. I see that anyone that does something you don't agree with is "sad", even if they're not bothering anyone else. How sad is that? Now that you're making personal attacks - I think you're a pathetic waste of air, and I can't stand your blinkered idiocy. I console myself with the fact that I'm not you.
Originally posted by aubend
Steven it seems you are hurt by my post. In a time of ecological realization and diminishing natural resources I feel that I am fully justified in calling people sad that come from miles around simply to operate vehicles with internal combustion engines for no purpose other than their own gratification and to the continual annoyance of others. Just as track day enthusiasts (such as yourself?) are wannabe weekend Ayrton Sennas. Get lives, get a productive hobby, save money, save a little bit of what's left of the environment.
Reply ID 63447
quote:God's teeth, aubend![:0] Apply a cold sponge to to the back of the neck and breath slowly and deeply.[:)]
Originally posted by aubendquote:Essex Neanderthal beer bellied bald headed. Mmmmm petrol power. Sniff my exhaust fumes.
Originally posted by stevenquote:I'm not hurt by you at all. I see that anyone that does something you don't agree with is "sad", even if they're not bothering anyone else. How sad is that? Now that you're making personal attacks - I think you're a pathetic waste of air, and I can't stand your blinkered idiocy. I console myself with the fact that I'm not you.
Originally posted by aubend
Steven it seems you are hurt by my post. In a time of ecological realization and diminishing natural resources I feel that I am fully justified in calling people sad that come from miles around simply to operate vehicles with internal combustion engines for no purpose other than their own gratification and to the continual annoyance of others. Just as track day enthusiasts (such as yourself?) are wannabe weekend Ayrton Sennas. Get lives, get a productive hobby, save money, save a little bit of what's left of the environment.
Reply ID 63471
quote:You contribute nothing to these forums. Do us all a favour and leave, please.
Originally posted by aubend Essex Neanderthal beer bellied bald headed. Mmmmm petrol power. Sniff my exhaust fumes.
Reply ID 63531
Looks like something is happening, There was two heavy plant machines being delivered on to the site this afternoon.
Reply ID 63535
quote:Mounds are being flattened as we speak...
Originally posted by hertford born and bred
Looks like something is happening, There was two heavy plant machines being delivered on to the site this afternoon.
Reply ID 63539
Do you think they will make it nice enough to park a few caravans on, and maybe make a little bit of a gateway on the way out................
Reply ID 63540
quote:That's why the mounds were put there, as a result of complaints from local residents.[;)]
Originally posted by Mr fixit
Do you think they will make it nice enough to park a few caravans on, and maybe make a little bit of a gateway on the way out................
Reply ID 63543
Hmmm, not sure that will stop the bikers. The mounds were only a small part of their fun. There are some steep hills and paths through the woods which are well used as well. Sorting that out would be a major construction project.
Reply ID 63546
quote:Perhaps we could get the Lake District flattened while they're at it. That'd stop those pesky tourists disturbing the locals. Oh, and that skate park thingy at Hartham. I've spotted people enjoying themselves there too.[:D]
Originally posted by JohnSmith
Hmmm, not sure that will stop the bikers. The mounds were only a small part of their fun. There are some steep hills and paths through the woods which are well used as well. Sorting that out would be a major construction project.
Reply ID 63547
Now that the local youths (and some older folk I might add) have had their bikes and there moral crushed, I’ve noticed an increase in the size of the queue at the Matalan checkout. It would seem that they are all buying hooded sweatshirts by the dozen in a bid to try and fit in with the other youths hanging about at the local shops, where they can get to learn the noble art of smoking a quick joint. [:D]
Reply ID 63549
quote:Possibly the most surreal post we've had on here.
Originally posted by Mr fixit
Now that the local youths (and some older folk I might add) have had their bikes and there moral crushed, I’ve noticed an increase in the size of the queue at the Matalan checkout. It would seem that they are all buying hooded sweatshirts by the dozen in a bid to try and fit in at the local shops, where they can get to learn the noble art of smoking a crack pipe.
Reply ID 63552
quote:What were you buying in Matalan?
Originally posted by Mr fixit
Now that the local youths (and some older folk I might add) have had their bikes and there moral crushed, I’ve noticed an increase in the size of the queue at the Matalan checkout. It would seem that they are all buying hooded sweatshirts by the dozen in a bid to try and fit in at the local shops, where they can get to learn the noble art of smoking a crack pipe.
Reply ID 63553
[img]../images/forum/bulldozing_mounds.jpg[/img]
Reply ID 63554
quote:Socks...............Why??
Originally posted by ~Sarah~quote:What were you buying in Matalan?
Originally posted by Mr fixit
Now that the local youths (and some older folk I might add) have had their bikes and there moral crushed, I’ve noticed an increase in the size of the queue at the Matalan checkout. It would seem that they are all buying hooded sweatshirts by the dozen in a bid to try and fit in at the local shops, where they can get to learn the noble art of smoking a crack pipe.
Reply ID 63555
Will they now use the levelled field as a speedway circuit?[:p] Interested to see the police attitude to the site now.
Reply ID 63556
quote:Are these mounds being built to restrict access to the site? Or are they being made to provide a great experience for the bikers?
Originally posted by Steve
[img]../images/forum/bulldozing_mounds.jpg[/img]
Reply ID 63557
The mounds are being removed, not built.
Reply ID 63558
http://www.hertfordshiremercury.co.uk/hertfordshiremercury%2Dnews/DisplayArticle.asp?ID=418726
Reply ID 63559
quote:Read the thread
Originally posted by James007
Are these mounds being built to restrict access to the site? Or are they being made to provide a great experience for the bikers?
Reply ID 63560
quote:Excuse me Mr Hertford, please do not become another teacher gone to ground. Just because you own this site, it does not give you the right, to be impolite. I only asked a question from the picture, not a short lecture, on how to view a photo of a mound.
Originally posted by Stevequote:Read the thread
Originally posted by James007
Are these mounds being built to restrict access to the site? Or are they being made to provide a great experience for the bikers?
Reply ID 63577
Were these mounds made to prevent access to the site? And can we now expect some of the travelling community to move onto the site?
Reply ID 63578
The mounds were not put there to prevent access to the site. Barriers of earth were built along the B1000 several years ago to prevent access to the site after it was visited by members of the travelling community.
Reply ID 63579
Archers Spring cannot win (or can it!)...........bikers or the travelling community, even though there is planning permission for the sports venue, I will bet a penny to the pound - houses and flats!!!just a thought...
Reply ID 64012
Roll back two years and go to the first post on page 1 of this thread.
Reply ID 76562
Big police activity there at the moment. 5 or 6 police vans. Any ideas?
Reply ID 76563
There was an illegal gypsy camp further up the road opp. the WGC turnoff on Friday. Police there too. Not sure if there's any link.
Reply ID 76564
Steve I think there is a second camp near the mast on the B1000. Lots of police activity. Very loud music coming from that direction late last night.
Reply ID 76581
I was out running past there between 8 and 9 Sunday morning and having talked to a couple of locals there was a rave that had been going on all night (and sounded like it was still going strong in the morning). They reckoned there was between 200 and 500 people there. You could not see it from the main road but could hear it from the B1000 side and from Bramfield and Tewin
Reply ID 76586
Very rude of them not to have posted an invite on here.
![http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v710/Martadelight/sele.jpg[/IMG]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v710/Martadelight/sele.jpg[/IMG]){kind=link}