Topic ID 2831
I do have a bad feeling about this[:(], what with the gravel pit and Sainsburys, the increased traffic through Bengeo, yes, I know the lorries are not supposed to have acccess, weight restrictions, but you try telling them that! when Rickney's was open before lorries used to come through empty, all they have to say is that they have just dropped a load off in Bengeo, or they are just delivering to site, therefore they have access. Is Old cross going to handle the Sanisburys lorries? The large juggarnauts who use Mac's struggle. I am sure someone out there in DHO land is busting to comment![:)]
Reply ID 40896
What's the weight limit? 7.5 tonnes?
Reply ID 40897
I am not sure
Reply ID 41121
Again our wonderful Mercury Newspaper isn't or doesn't pick up on this.. Very soon, Everyone in Hertford will suffer enormously.. Because people from/to Bengeo/Hertford will have to pass by Macs road to Hartham and I fully expect the whole town to not move an inch.. I can see it now and it makes me think that those who issued permission to Macs to allow sainsbury's in have, lets just say, got someone in their pocket, cos surely this is a total no work situation...... Bye bye Hertford, it was nice knowing you...
Reply ID 41125
I'm confused. My understanding is that there is to be an increase in gravel extraction (has this been approved yet?) but the lorries are restricted due to the weight limit so they should not go through Hertford, and the supermarket hasn't been approved yet.
Reply ID 41127
has a sainsburys application even been made yet?
Reply ID 41130
quote:Nope.
Originally posted by codek2
has a sainsburys application even been made yet?
Reply ID 41136
We just have to and wait and hope that for some reason it all goes horribly wrong for them.
Reply ID 41144
quote:Ewooar, I am like you I am too confused, lorries can go through the town, but I think it may be the old railway bridge cannot take the weight, but there again the Co-Op lorry sometimes goes that way! if you travel over it now it full of lumps and bumps!! Hertford and Bengeo are not built to take heavy traffic, you think the council and planning would know this by now. As for the Chapmore End I feel so sorry for them, we have friends who live at Rickney's where all the barn conversions are, God know's how they will fair. I just think money talks.
Originally posted by Ewoowar
I'm confused. My understanding is that there is to be an increase in gravel extraction (has this been approved yet?) but the lorries are restricted due to the weight limit so they should not go through Hertford, and the supermarket hasn't been approved yet.
Reply ID 41148
quote:Rickney's was a gravel extraction site before those barns were converted and future extraction has been on the agenda for as long as I've lived in Hertford, so no surprises there for the purchasers. The associated lorries will be heading away from Hertford not through it. The roads into Hertford are more clogged than they were when Rickney's was last fully operational and the roads to the A1 and A10 better. Aggregate lorry drivers are generally on piece work. They don't waste time sitting in traffic, if there is a alternative. We have discussed Sainsbury on another thread. Mac's used to handle heavy vehicles in larger numbers than will ever be necessary for a supermarket. It is only recently that they have been inactive. Heavy traffic at Old Cross is partly school runs. It seems walking or cycling from Bengeo to Simon Balle, or even Richard Hale is beyond the fitness level of many children these days.[V]
Originally posted by furrybunnyquote:Ewooar, I am like you I am too confused, lorries can go through the town, but I think it may be the old railway bridge cannot take the weight, but there again the Co-Op lorry sometimes goes that way! if you travel over it now it full of lumps and bumps!! Hertford and Bengeo are not built to take heavy traffic, you think the council and planning would know this by now. As for the Chapmore End I feel so sorry for them, we have friends who live at Rickney's where all the barn conversions are, God know's how they will fair. I just think money talks.
Originally posted by Ewoowar
I'm confused. My understanding is that there is to be an increase in gravel extraction (has this been approved yet?) but the lorries are restricted due to the weight limit so they should not go through Hertford, and the supermarket hasn't been approved yet.
Reply ID 41181
We've received a letter today from Sainsbury's inviting us to a public exhibition at the Corn Exchange on the 21/22/23 June.
Reply ID 41182
Not true about the walking to Simon Balle from Bengeo. My daughter and many of her friends do it every day.[:)]
Reply ID 41185
quote:Our's too, but there's plenty who don't.
Originally posted by Arty
Not true about the walking to Simon Balle from Bengeo. My daughter and many of her friends do it every day.[:)]
Reply ID 41215
quote:Just to add the times of the public exhibitions are: Thurs 21st June: 4pm to 8pm Fri 22nd June: 12pm to 6pm Sat 23rd June: 10am to 4pm
Originally posted by Arty
We've received a letter today from Sainsbury's inviting us to a public exhibition at the Corn Exchange on the 21/22/23 June.
Reply ID 41235
quote:Rickney's was a gravel extraction site before those barns were converted and future extraction has been on the agenda for as long as I've lived in Hertford, so no surprises there for the purchasers. The associated lorries will be heading away from Hertford not through it. The roads into Hertford are more clogged than they were when Rickney's was last fully operational and the roads to the A1 and A10 better. Aggregate lorry drivers are generally on piece work. They don't waste time sitting in traffic, if there is a alternative. We have discussed Sainsbury on another thread. Mac's used to handle heavy vehicles in larger numbers than will ever be necessary for a supermarket. It is only recently that they have been inactive. Heavy traffic at Old Cross is partly school runs. It seems walking or cycling from Bengeo to Simon Balle, or even Richard Hale is beyond the fitness level of many children these days.[V] Shunt, I was concerned about the lorries that want to get on the A414 they will want the quickest route, through Hertford! when we had the signs put up, some of the lorries were stopped, loaded, at random the drivers said that they had deliveries in the area, which they are allowed to do, when stopped empty, coming from the A414, they said they had just 'dropped their load' I can see it happening again, not all lorries do this, but you will get a rogue element![:(!] oh, and by the way, I had a broken windscreen when the lorries used Bengeo Street last time they used the street, gravel flying all over the place.
Originally posted by shuntquote:Ewooar, I am like you I am too confused, lorries can go through the town, but I think it may be the old railway bridge cannot take the weight, but there again the Co-Op lorry sometimes goes that way! if you travel over it now it full of lumps and bumps!! Hertford and Bengeo are not built to take heavy traffic, you think the council and planning would know this by now. As for the Chapmore End I feel so sorry for them, we have friends who live at Rickney's where all the barn conversions are, God know's how they will fair. I just think money talks.
Originally posted by furrybunny
[quote]Originally posted by Ewoowar
I'm confused. My understanding is that there is to be an increase in gravel extraction (has this been approved yet?) but the lorries are restricted due to the weight limit so they should not go through Hertford, and the supermarket hasn't been approved yet.
Reply ID 41272
Its not just the lorries, we live in a clay soil area, when it dries out (as is the want with our global warming) subsidence of roads, paths and homes occurs.. It was one of the main reasons why lorries were prohibited from going round Bengeo! Your home is seriously at risk or falling in on itself! Why have I not had any information about the Sainsbury's plan? Who gets these surely not just those who live/work around Macs????? Can anyone tell me??? Thanks...
Reply ID 41273
quote:It was a flyer distributed to houses within the vicinity. That's probably all they officially need to do. However, anyone can go to the Corn Exchange. It will probably be in next week's Mercury.
Originally posted by Drama Queen
Its not just the lorries, we live in a clay soil area, when it dries out (as is the want with our global warming) subsidence of roads, paths and homes occurs.. It was one of the main reasons why lorries were prohibited from going round Bengeo! Your home is seriously at risk or falling in on itself! Why have I not had any information about the Sainsbury's plan? Who gets these surely not just those who live/work around Macs????? Can anyone tell me??? Thanks...
Reply ID 41291
Thank you Mr Ray.... I always like to see what is planned.. most helpful...[:)]
Reply ID 41295
quote:And shops in the vicinity.
Originally posted by Ray_by_the_Beanequote:It was a flyer distributed to houses within the vicinity. That's probably all they officially need to do. However, anyone can go to the Corn Exchange. It will probably be in next week's Mercury.
Originally posted by Drama Queen
Its not just the lorries, we live in a clay soil area, when it dries out (as is the want with our global warming) subsidence of roads, paths and homes occurs.. It was one of the main reasons why lorries were prohibited from going round Bengeo! Your home is seriously at risk or falling in on itself! Why have I not had any information about the Sainsbury's plan? Who gets these surely not just those who live/work around Macs????? Can anyone tell me??? Thanks...
Reply ID 41298
By the way, I thought invitations to see the "exhibition" of Sainsbury's does mean its in the bag???!!! A bit of corp. PR on Sainsbury's part to de-stress the locals????
Reply ID 41510
quote:Might be a bit late for some. Times are: Thursday 4pm till 8pm Friday noon till 6pm Saturday 10:00am till 4:00pm
Originally posted by Ray_by_the_Beane It will probably be in next week's Mercury.
Reply ID 41524
Front page of The Star says the Exhibition's on today, tomorrow and Saturday.(not next week) Can't believe this esteemed organ's got it wrong, surely...
Reply ID 41525
There is some confusion over the dates of the exhibition. The freebie Star newspaper says this Thurs, Fri, and Sat (14th, 15th, 16th), but the Salisbury's flyer says next Thurs, Fri, Sat (21st, 22nd, 23rd). I'd be inclined to believe the flyer.
Reply ID 41530
quote:That sounds more reasonable.
Originally posted by Ray_by_the_Beane ...but the Salisbury's flyer says next Thurs, Fri, Sat (21st, 22nd, 23rd). I'd be inclined to believe the flyer.
quote:That doesn't mean it was 'Ok' then, either. [:)]
Originally posted by Shunt Mac's used to handle heavy vehicles in larger numbers than will ever be necessary for a supermarket...
Reply ID 41536
Definitely June 21st 4pm - 8pm, 22nd June 12.00pm - 6pm and 23 June 10.00am 0 4.00pm. Straight from Sainsbury's development team who will be present. Also Community Voice on 21st June 7.30pm at Simon Balle School. If anyone can't attend and would like to express thoughts on this contact me through my profile and I will pass on to Sainsbury's when I meet with them next week. Alternatively speak to your local Town or District Councillor who will certainly be involved in the planning application process.
Reply ID 41537
This suggests that the site has not been acquired for land-banking.
Reply ID 41639
Anyone seen the Mercury today? Sporting a front page artists impression of the projected new Sainsburys. ARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!! Somehow I thought it might look a little less 'supermarkety'. It's brought home the fact that they really are going to do it. [:(] They must have some of the land to the right as you head down to Hartham as well, 'cos they're talking about a bridge across to Folly Island.. Link: [url]http://www.herts-essex-news.co.uk/news/mercury/hertfordshire_mercury/2007/06/15/look%20whats%20in%20store.lpf[/url]
Reply ID 41641
The Mercury story also said that some of the Sainsbury's car parking would be available to the public. I wonder how many spaces and what time limits/charges will apply?
Reply ID 41644
quote:Interstingly they seem to accept that there is little that can be done with regards to traffic. Therefore the plan is a non-starter. The store will clearly cause an increase in traffic and Old Cross just isn't going to cope. It can barely cope now. This store isn't just going to go away. If you don't want it built you have to do something about it.
Originally posted by Ray_by_the_Beane
The Mercury story also said that some of the Sainsbury's car parking would be available to the public. I wonder how many spaces and what time limits/charges will apply?
Reply ID 41645
Well I think the store is a good idea. Herford is bereft of a good supermarket in my view. Tesco is too small and the food is of poor quality compared to Sainsburys. Waitrose is of course good but too pricey for a full shop. I know the traffic might be an issue and the artist's impression hardly fits in with the surrounding area as the Sainsbury spokesman suggests but I think it will be positive for the town. I can't understand the bit about the bridge though. It is nowhere near the river is it?
Reply ID 41647
33,000 sq feet, how does that compare to Tesco's ? anyone know ?
Reply ID 41653
quote:[:0] Blimey - No wonder the high street greengrocers have given up.
Originally posted by maggie Tesco is too small...
quote:It is crap, isn't it. [:)]
Originally posted by maggie ...and the food is of poor quality...
Reply ID 41656
quote:It's the location. It's ridiculous.
Originally posted by maggie
Well I think the store is a good idea. Herford is bereft of a good supermarket in my view. Tesco is too small and the food is of poor quality compared to Sainsburys. Waitrose is of course good but too pricey for a full shop. I know the traffic might be an issue and the artist's impression hardly fits in with the surrounding area as the Sainsbury spokesman suggests but I think it will be positive for the town. I can't understand the bit about the bridge though. It is nowhere near the river is it?
Reply ID 41657
quote:I have to say I don't have a problem with the location. If the roads are chocabloc anyway, what difference will traffic for a supermarket make? They'll still be chocabloc. This town needs a decent affordable supermarket in my view. Sorry.
Originally posted by Ewoowar
[quote]It's the location. It's ridiculous.
Reply ID 41661
quote:On this one, I agree with you. Where should a food shop be, but in a town center where people live? Miles from anywhere down a long length of dual carriageway so that we'd all have to drive our cars and load them up in ne go, perhaps? No, that would be just silly, wouldn't it?[:D]
Originally posted by maggiequote:I have to say I don't have a problem with the location. If the roads are chocabloc anyway, what difference will traffic for a supermarket make? They'll still be chocabloc. This town needs a decent affordable supermarket in my view. Sorry.
Originally posted by Ewoowar
[quote]It's the location. It's ridiculous.
Reply ID 41663
quote:Thank the Lord we agree on something! [:0]
Originally posted by shunt
[quote] On this one, I agree with you. Where should a food shop be, but in a town center where people live? Miles from anywhere down a long length of dual carriageway so that we'd all have to drive our cars and load them up in ne go, perhaps? No, that would be just silly, wouldn't it?[:D]
Reply ID 41666
I'm amused people are discussing it though - if sainsburys want to do it, it'll happen. especially as this site is perfect for it!
Reply ID 41668
I still fail to see how it can work.. if you cannot get cars let alone delivery lorries to stock up the place.. well your customers aren't gonna get through either. It really is a bad idea.. I go to the Hoddesdon one, very nice, less than 7 mins from Bengeo.. if you go to Brookfield Farm why go all that way when you can go to Sainsburys nearer in Hoddesdon... purpose built, good location. Macs may have just bitten off the hand that feeds it.. and to think I wanted to work for them!!!!
Reply ID 41671
quote:So you drive all the way to Hoddesdon to shop? What's your mileage and therefor contribution to overrall congestion by doing so, as apposed to from your house to Hartham, which you could even walk? The Sainbury store in Hoddesdon is a purpose built site, if levelling a large and historic area of a town, rather than a disused and tatty industrial estate can be called that. OK in somebody else's town?
Originally posted by Drama Queen
I still fail to see how it can work.. if you cannot get cars let alone delivery lorries to stock up the place.. well your customers aren't gonna get through either. It really is a bad idea.. I go to the Hoddesdon one, very nice, less than 7 mins from Bengeo.. if you go to Brookfield Farm why go all that way when you can go to Sainsburys nearer in Hoddesdon... purpose built, good location. Macs may have just bitten off the hand that feeds it.. and to think I wanted to work for them!!!!
Reply ID 41672
quote:Seven minutes from Bengeo to Hoddesdon! Blimey DQ, where do you park the helicopter when you get there?? [:)] On a more serious note, we are based in Hartham Lane and I foresee major grief while the new supermarket is being built.
Originally posted by Drama Queen
I go to the Hoddesdon one, very nice, less than 7 mins from Bengeo..
Reply ID 41674
What is with all this supermarket bashing? Obviously Sainsburys and Tescos can't win. Build a nice big out of town store with lots of stock and it gets slated for being out of town, not green, killing town centres etc. Build it on a brownfield site in a town centre, and it gets accused of causing traffic chaos. Incedentally the one or two delivery lorries per day to a supermarket will probably cause less traffic chaos than the large numbers of people driving their cars to and from work. The Sainsburys will probably be too small to attract people from nearby towns (except perhaps Ware, but even then Hoddesdon and Harlow are probably more convenient) so the people that use it will primarily be the residents of Hertford, so they will go there rather than carry on to Tescos on the other side of Hertford. If the traffic is bad then people will be more likely to go to the most convenient location for them.
Reply ID 41675
quote:From the junction of Bengeo St / The Avenue (according to my Autoroute) its 6.9 miles by road as the shortest distance, which involves going through Hertford and up London Road towards the A10. To do that in 7 minutes would demand an average speed of in excess of 60 mph in a built up area. How does that fit in with your other postings of responsible driving on the L Plate horror thread DQ?
Originally posted by Drama Queen I go to the Hoddesdon one, very nice, less than 7 mins from Bengeo..
Reply ID 41676
quote:Better tell them that they don't need to build that 280 space car park then. [;)]
Originally posted by shunt Where should a food shop be, but in a town center where people live? Miles from anywhere down a long length of dual carriageway so that we'd all have to drive our cars and load them up in ne go, perhaps? No, that would be just silly, wouldn't it?
Reply ID 41678
quote:If only that were true. Not quite there yet, I think.[:)]
Originally posted by Ted Badgerquote:Better tell them that they don't need to build that 280 space car park then. [;)]
Originally posted by shunt Where should a food shop be, but in a town center where people live? Miles from anywhere down a long length of dual carriageway so that we'd all have to drive our cars and load them up in ne go, perhaps? No, that would be just silly, wouldn't it?
Reply ID 41680
Hopefully they will get Jamie Oliver to open it. Pukka! (sainsburys - not the gravel pit that is)
Reply ID 41686
quote:Perfect? People will want to drive to it and the roads can't cope with the current traffic? Why is it perfect?
Originally posted by codek2
I'm amused people are discussing it though - if sainsburys want to do it, it'll happen. especially as this site is perfect for it!
Reply ID 41687
quote:Exactly. If you do not want to encourage people to drive then don't build a car park or make it smaller. But hang on, they need the people driving there and doing a weeks shopping in order to make the place viable. Oh, so there will be extra cars, and they will have to go through Hertford, and they will make traffic worse. To quote the Sainsbury's spokesman, "It’s hard to do much with the road network in Hertford. It’s quite tightly-knit and there’s not much space for changes. Our transport consultant is in discussions with the council at the moment but believes the relationship between deliveries and customers should not cause any problems." It isn't the lorries that is the problem. It's the cars, hundreds of them using Cowbridge and Old Cross. And who cares about the relationship between the deliveries and the customers. That sentence on it's own speaks volumes about how little they care about the impact on the town and the non-customers. Go on, tell us how many customers you are forecasting. How many of them are expected to drive? I have nothing against Sainsbury or the site in principal, but only if the traffic would not be a problem.
Originally posted by Ted Badgerquote:Better tell them that they don't need to build that 280 space car park then. [;)]
Originally posted by shunt Where should a food shop be, but in a town center where people live? Miles from anywhere down a long length of dual carriageway so that we'd all have to drive our cars and load them up in ne go, perhaps? No, that would be just silly, wouldn't it?
Reply ID 41691
From reading the article in the Mercury it sounds like they are going to build a bridge to link better with the town centre and open up the neglected river front. I think this would be great and could really be what Hertford needs if it leads to improved development. If this was the case more people would potentially shop in the town which in theory would attract high quality retailers. They have been doing similar work in Bishop's Stortford and the place has been transformed from grotty to smart. Hopefully the same can happen here. Let's look on the positive side for once!
Reply ID 41692
quote:Yes, great. Nowt wrong with Sainsbury or the bridge idea. But they have to sort out the traffic issue as well.
Originally posted by maggie
From reading the article in the Mercury it sounds like they are going to build a bridge to link better with the town centre and open up the neglected river front. I think this would be great and could really be what Hertford needs if it leads to improved development. If this was the case more people would potentially shop in the town which in theory would attract high quality retailers. They have been doing similar work in Bishop's Stortford and the place has been transformed from grotty to smart. Hopefully the same can happen here. Let's look on the positive side for once!
Reply ID 41694
Would you like a footbridge to run past your front door? That's why the one from Old Cross Wharf to Maidenehad Yard never got built because no one would buy the properties along it. As soon as the bridge went hey presto! houses sold tout de suite. I doubt if many people on Folly Island will be too pleased about the idea either - received with the same spirit as attempts to link the Bus station with Thornton Street. There's ideas for bridges all along the Hertford stretch of the River Lea. From what i've heard there's only one group who are actually keen on the idea. Fine on the planning boards, not too good living near one. There's enough comment on these boards about yob behaviour to understand why. The only reason Sainsbury's came in is that the family Macmullen decided they'd rather cash in than continue brewing. In Bishops Stortford look no further than Stanstead to find out why there is so much money being thrown at it.
Reply ID 41695
quote:Fine. Lets all live in a time warp. With attitudes like that it's a wonder people ever ventured out of caves and into mud huts.
Originally posted by sloopjohnb
Would you like a footbridge to run past your front door? That's why the one from Old Cross Wharf to Maidenehad Yard never got built because no one would buy the properties along it. As soon as the bridge went hey presto! houses sold tout de suite. I doubt if many people on Folly Island will be too pleased about the idea either - received with the same spirit as attempts to link the Bus station with Thornton Street. There's ideas for bridges all along the Hertford stretch of the River Lea. From what i've heard there's only one group who are actually keen on the idea. Fine on the planning boards, not too good living near one. There's enough comment on these boards about yob behaviour to understand why. The only reason Sainsbury's came in is that the family Macmullen decided they'd rather cash in than continue brewing. In Bishops Stortford look no further than Stanstead to find out why there is so much money being thrown at it.
Reply ID 41696
quote:All for the opening up of the waterfront, although I share Sloop's misgivings about the impact on the Folly. What interests me here is all this "attracting high quality retailers" Also I'm intrigued as to what definition we use for "grotty" & smart?. Are we expecting Harrods & Fortnams to move into Maidenhead Street? ….poetic justice of course would suggest where Slades used to be.[8D] Does the “positive side” mean lots of outragesly overpriced boutiques ratcheting up the already ludicrous rents & business rates? We are becoming Tunbridge Wells[:(!]. The words “ideas” “above” & “station” are coming to mind….. Its amazing how the potential of the arrival of a middle class icon (even when its actually just Tesco , with smart bags) gets the chattering class’s juices going…..[}:)] Now back to that gridlock.
Originally posted by maggie
From reading the article in the Mercury it sounds like they are going to build a bridge to link better with the town centre and open up the neglected river front. I think this would be great and could really be what Hertford needs if it leads to improved development. If this was the case more people would potentially shop in the town which in theory would attract high quality retailers. They have been doing similar work in Bishop's Stortford and the place has been transformed from grotty to smart. Hopefully the same can happen here. Let's look on the positive side for once!
Reply ID 41697
quote:We did'nt . Thats what we love about the Folly.
Originally posted by maggiequote:Fine. Lets all live in a time warp. With attitudes like that it's a wonder people ever ventured out of caves and into mud huts.
Originally posted by sloopjohnb
Would you like a footbridge to run past your front door? That's why the one from Old Cross Wharf to Maidenehad Yard never got built because no one would buy the properties along it. As soon as the bridge went hey presto! houses sold tout de suite. I doubt if many people on Folly Island will be too pleased about the idea either - received with the same spirit as attempts to link the Bus station with Thornton Street. There's ideas for bridges all along the Hertford stretch of the River Lea. From what i've heard there's only one group who are actually keen on the idea. Fine on the planning boards, not too good living near one. There's enough comment on these boards about yob behaviour to understand why. The only reason Sainsbury's came in is that the family Macmullen decided they'd rather cash in than continue brewing. In Bishops Stortford look no further than Stanstead to find out why there is so much money being thrown at it.
Reply ID 41698
People have been whingeing on for years about what Hertford needs. A butchers, bakers, C&A, River Island, Harrods etc etc. You have to ask yourself why haven't any of these people come here already. Sainsbury's will not drive a flood of greengrocers, butchers and bakers into town because the independent cannot compete with the BIG 4. Take a good look at Hertford's centre and tell me where any large multiple or chain is going to locate. The only people who are going to come into this town are coffee shops; they are the only ones who can afford the rent/rates. One small unit currently empty is attracting a ratable value of £20,000 (reduced from £22,000 on appeal). How much net profit do you have to make in a week to pay that? Bridges - no one wants them. I am not in a time warp; if I am then I'm in one with virtually every group in town. Sainsbury's I'm sure will do a lovely job for the Council of completing the Riverside Yards project - a copy of which I have dating back to 1997 and nothing in that book has been achieved. So thank you Macs and Sainsbury's. The developments at Adams Yard (now withdrawn) and Dolphin Yard are still nowhere near completion. And if you want to know what effect having a large store has on the health of a town then there's a prime example down in Waltham Abbey where residents and traders welcomed Tesco's with open arms and are regreting the day that they did.
Reply ID 41700
quote:Ok. Grotty = back of Waitrose / Waterfront area. All concrete and ducksh*t. Grotty = Maidenhead Street. Grotty = vomit on pavements every Saturday and Sunday morning. Grotty = the Castle hall. Grotty = the area around McMullens that Sainburys are actually trying to smarten up! Smart = modern, clean, attractive, well designed, functional, life enhancing, feel-good, looking to the future not the past. It does not mean lots of expensive boutiques which it could be argued we already have enough poor man's versions of already. It would mean H&M instead of M&Co. It would mean Next instead of the Edinburgh Wool Shop. It would mean Blacks instead of Millets. The words "stuck" "in" and "past" come to mind. Do you drive a car? If so you create gridlock just like everyone else does. Live with it.
Originally posted by Capitalist piglet
[quote] All for the opening up of the waterfront, although I share Sloop's misgivings about the impact on the Folly. What interests me here is all this "attracting high quality retailers" Also I'm intrigued as to what definition we use for "grotty" & smart?. Are we expecting Harrods & Fortnams to move into Maidenhead Street? ….poetic justice of course would suggest where Slades used to be.[8D] Does the “positive side” mean lots of outragesly overpriced boutiques ratcheting up the already ludicrous rents & business rates? We are becoming Tunbridge Wells[:(!]. The words “ideas” “above” & “station” are coming to mind….. Its amazing how the potential of the arrival of a middle class icon (even when its actually just Tesco , with smart bags) gets the chattering class’s juices going…..[}:)] Now back to that gridlock.
Reply ID 41702
quote:Broadly agree with your post Maggie – (can't talk about "H&M instead of M&Co" - sounds like something you may prefer to do in the privacy of your own home[^]). And aren’t Blacks just a posh (damn… sorry - meant smart) version of Millets? That said, be chuffed if they came in to plug that gap. Point is, it ain't going to happen. That’s not living in the past - that’s living in Planet Hertford. I'm sure that Sloop might like you to fulfill his role for a couple of weeks & if you can bring in even some of the Smart initiatives you suggest then more power to your elbow. As several posts suggest though, bridges across the river or not, I have serious doubts that Sainsburys is going to help & may even heed. Here’s to the future. And incidentally the CPwagon stays mostly parked & out of gridlock, cos we can do our shopping in Waitrose & what’s left of central Hertford - and I prefer to use the train ( but I regret usually standard class , not smart at all)
Originally posted by maggie [ Ok. Grotty = back of Waitrose / Waterfront area. All concrete and ducksh*t. Grotty = Maidenhead Street. Grotty = vomit on pavements every Saturday and Sunday morning. Grotty = the Castle hall. Grotty = the area around McMullens that Sainburys are actually trying to smarten up! Smart = modern, clean, attractive, well designed, functional, life enhancing, feel-good, looking to the future not the past. It does not mean lots of expensive boutiques which it could be argued we already have enough poor man's versions of already. It would mean H&M instead of M&Co. It would mean Next instead of the Edinburgh Wool Shop. It would mean Blacks instead of Millets. The words "stuck" "in" and "past" come to mind. Do you drive a car? If so you create gridlock just like everyone else does. Live with it.
Reply ID 41703
Maggie I'm possibly having a bad today but in order: The area at back of Waitrose if developed in 2007 instead of 1981 would have a pleasant range of shop fronts thereby opening up the river to more people - including ducks. If we were to lose the ducks, the coots, the geese and the pigeons what a sad area it would be. A trip down the river which I organised on behalf of the IWA for county/town/district councillors and officer and various other people really opened up their eyes to the neglect of the area and the potential for rennaissance. However, nothing happens. A couple of years ago I was involved in the Cleaner, Greener, Tidier Hertford campaign involving multi-agency working. It is the intention of the Hertford Town Partnership to initiate another one this year, and one that will be 'on-going' not a one-off. I know how to do it but have I got the energy. Not this morning anyway. You can't ask chain stores to come into town. I know of quite a few then empty premises that were almost sold to A star clients only for location/development/logistics managers to stop the deal at the last moment (literally in one case) because they did not think the demographics of Hertford added up. I have companies in town with empty office space ask if there are any concessions towards parking. There isn't. Even a small office needs staff and big stores need more staff who if they don't live in town have to drive in because some villages aren't serviced by train/bus. I hope this depression isn't too catching. Oh, and I don't have a car either. It's better to walk - especially in my job but I am not the slimmer for it.
Reply ID 41704
Blimey - it seems things are worse than I thought. At least Sainsburys want to invest in Hertford which has got to be positive considering the other 'A' list stores pulling out - maybe they will change their minds too. I guess the nature of Hertford's geography and infrastructure go against it in terms of parking/roads etc. I went to St .Albans the other day and thought how good the shops were. If only Hertford could become like a mini version of that I would be happy - but then it appears Hertford is doomed to be the town that time forgot. If only St.Albans wren't so expensive I would consider moving there.
Reply ID 41705
quote:Exactly. I have asked in certain quarters if there is a plan for Hertford similar in fashion to Stortford. I am still waiting. Sainsbury's might lead to the eventual 'enhancement' of the Bull Plain/Salisbury Square/Maidenhead Street area. As well as the reversal of traffic flow on Folly Island. The idea is raised, discussed and then dropped off the radar again. It could lead to a very pleasant town centre but I have a feeling that it will come about unplanned, piecemeal and by accident unless I can locate the man who has had this idea on his drawing board for longer than I have been involved in highways discussions.
At least Sainsburys want to invest in Hertford which has got to be positive
Reply ID 41712
quote:It seems the problem lies with the council/planners not pulling their fingers out. Quel surprise. If you do get round to sorting something out - can we have a Harrods please? (Joke )[:D]
Originally posted by sloopjohnb
Exactly. I have asked in certain quarters if there is a plan for Hertford similar in fashion to Stortford. I am still waiting. Sainsbury's might lead to the eventual 'enhancement' of the Bull Plain/Salisbury Square/Maidenhead Street area. As well as the reversal of traffic flow on Folly Island. The idea is raised, discussed and then dropped off the radar again. It could lead to a very pleasant town centre but I have a feeling that it will come about unplanned, piecemeal and by accident unless I can locate the man who has had this idea on his drawing board for longer than I have been involved in highways discussions.
Reply ID 41741
quote:Surely the plans for the Old Croos Wharf bridge were around on the drawing board before those houses were developed, so the developers/purchasers knew they'd have a footbridge near they're front door? And if you live near, and enjoy, a river nearby, something like a bridge is...shall we say - inevitable?
Originally posted by sloopjohnb
Would you like a footbridge to run past your front door? That's why the one from Old Cross Wharf to Maidenehad Yard never got built because no one would buy the properties along it. As soon as the bridge went hey presto! houses sold tout de suite. I doubt if many people on Folly Island will be too pleased about the idea either - received with the same spirit as attempts to link the Bus station with Thornton Street. There's ideas for bridges all along the Hertford stretch of the River Lea. From what i've heard there's only one group who are actually keen on the idea. Fine on the planning boards, not too good living near one. There's enough comment on these boards about yob behaviour to understand why. The only reason Sainsbury's came in is that the family Macmullen decided they'd rather cash in than continue brewing. In Bishops Stortford look no further than Stanstead to find out why there is so much money being thrown at it.
Reply ID 41744
What we need is an old salty dog in a chunky knit sweater, skipper's hat and a pipe, plus one creaky rowing boat, Walberswick stylee. There you go. River crossing combined with Olde Worlde Charm/tourist attraction.
Reply ID 41745
quote:Ummm. Yes. Many came to look, none were buying.
Surely the plans for the Old Croos Wharf bridge were around on the drawing board before those houses were developed, so the developers/purchasers knew they'd have a footbridge near they're front door? And if you live near, and enjoy, a river nearby, something like a bridge is...shall we say - inevitable?
quote:Just signed him up for Ancient Britain. Sorry, Hidden Britain.
What we need is an old salty dog in a chunky knit sweater, skipper's hat and a pipe, plus one creaky rowing boat
Reply ID 41751
Sorry, being very dumb. Where would this bridge proposedly be? I'm having trouble understanding where it would be that would give benefit over and above the existing pedestrian bridge to Folly Island unless it is planning to go through some of the properties??!![?] Or is the question how Folly Island may be linked to the Town Centre better? Is Hertford really that big that we need a Venetian connection of bridges??
Reply ID 41752
At the moment I don't know but am meeting with the Sainsbury's team before the plans are officially displayed and this is one of the things to be discussed. You may have seen elsewhere that one of the plans for the town centre was to reverse the traffic flow on Folly Island and opening Thornton Street bridge to traffic would be part of this so have to wait and see. When they rang last week they did say that there were several options offered/proposed/suggested by East Herts. I think we'll all have to wait for Thursday.
Reply ID 41758
quote:Sorry I now have a very unfortunate mental image of Sloop on a gondola in full costume (inc hat) punting past the Old Barge singing "just one cornetto". I think I may have to have a lie down.......
Originally posted by nuts
Is Hertford really that big that we need a Venetian connection of bridges??
Reply ID 41765
quote:Just don't tell Mrs Sloop. She thinks I'm just a figment of her imagination as well.
I think I may have to have a lie down.......
Reply ID 41768
I'll await Thursday then. "Reversal" of traffic flow sounds a nightmare!! All Folly Island traffic would have to go past the new Sainsburys and negotiate some tight roads with very tight parking???!!! Whats the significance or point come to think of it!!!
Reply ID 41769
quote:Thornton Street is narrow,especially with cars parked both sides, wont this idea decrease the number of parking spaces for residents?
Originally posted by nuts
I'll await Thursday then. "Reversal" of traffic flow sounds a nightmare!! All Folly Island traffic would have to go past the new Sainsburys and negotiate some tight roads with very tight parking???!!! Whats the significance or point come to think of it!!!
Reply ID 41773
quote:And what about delivery vans, dustbin lorries, fire engines .. etc etc
Originally posted by nuts
I'll await Thursday then. "Reversal" of traffic flow sounds a nightmare!! All Folly Island traffic would have to go past the new Sainsburys and negotiate some tight roads with very tight parking???!!! Whats the significance or point come to think of it!!!
Reply ID 41775
When the idea of reversing traffic on Folly Island was being discussed - about 5 years ago with Mouchel TSC and pre-Arup - the people most in favour of the scheme were the emergency services. I still have photos of fire engines stuck on the crossroads, one resident being carried on a stretcher the length of Old Hall Street as the ambulance couldn't go no further than the crossroads. The RPZ has eased these problems and this was one part of the equation together with some enhancement of the road at Thornton Street. The Island's policy was no reversal of traffic without a RPZ. I also still have Mouchel's plans for the whole of Hartham and the Island which made the area look like one big car park with slip roads for Folly Island. Now along comes Sainsbury's and I bet those plans have been dusted down again. To conclude, one of the blocks to the scheme was Macmullens who wanted to maintain free access down Hartham Lane. But of course they have downsized considerably since then and sold off huge chunks of the land over which the access road was going to be. Some people believe I am a conspiracy theorist - can you understand why?
Reply ID 41778
Hmm, well as I was walking to Hartham, down past Macs towards the Swimming pool, the right hand "fork" would take you to the sold off Macs bit (Sainburys) and a lady in a T Reg Fiesta car was coming up from Hartham, however, a Merc travelling to Hartham didn't let the lady get past and I as a pedestrian walking to the free car parks on Saturday had to slam myself into the wall as the poor lady Fiesta driver, who had right of way tried not to hit me but at the same time the lady merc driver wasn't going to stop! If ever you think artic. lorries are going to manage this with cars to/from their proposed supermarket I can only say I nearly lost more than my shopping from Boots! People are impatient and don't care who's right of way it is, they just plough on and hope you'll get out of the way, so on Thursday I will be going to see the "proposals" at the Corn Exchange and ask, if I am allowed, to put these and other issues to them and see if I feel they are going to be properly addressed for me, the emergency services access and Hertford people in general..
Reply ID 41779
I heard on the radio that the Royal Family of Qatar have bought 25% of Sainsburys shares (they now own more than the Sainsbaury family) and that it may be a takeover approach or it could be that they want Sainsburys to release money from its property portfolio (which is worth 8.25 billion!). This could possibly mean that the proposed store in Hertford won't go ahead if they are forced to sell off a lot of property assets. Just a thought.
Reply ID 41780
If the brewery wall to the East of Hartham Lane and the buildings immediately behind it are not listed then they can be removed and the entrance to the right hand fork could be widened.
Reply ID 41781
quote:Given the timescales and facts as reported below, I think it unlikely that this will have any impact on the Hertford store. [url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6761081.stm"]Qatar 'eyes Sainsbury's takeover'[/url]
Originally posted by maggie
This could possibly mean that the proposed store in Hertford won't go ahead if they are forced to sell off a lot of property assets. Just a thought.
Reply ID 41785
I believe the big Macs brewery "turret" with the flag on it is listed and therefore cannot be knocked down to make the forked road situation better.. hence why some of us believe the transport situation needs to be urgently addressed by Sainsburys and Macs and that the expected footfall and carfall of people visiting and using Sainsburys, if you look at other supermarkets in the area, means this is so ludicrous to site it here that it beggars belief. But I will see the exhibition and get some information.... and then moan a bit more[:D]
Reply ID 41789
quote:The turret is to the West of Hartham Lane, I referred to the wall and buildings to the East.
Originally posted by Drama Queen
I believe the big Macs brewery "turret" with the flag on it is listed and therefore cannot be knocked down to make the forked road situation better.. hence why some of us believe the transport situation needs to be urgently addressed by Sainsburys and Macs and that the expected footfall and carfall of people visiting and using Sainsburys, if you look at other supermarkets in the area, means this is so ludicrous to site it here that it beggars belief. But I will see the exhibition and get some information.... and then moan a bit more[:D]
Reply ID 41792
Why do we need another Supermarket anyway? We already have Tesco's and Waitrose, there is no need for a Sainsburys whatsoever. Why couldn't someone have got in there before them and converted the buildings into very smart apartments/homes. That would have made the developers a tidy profit and also would have kept a Hertford 'landmark' still in tact.
Reply ID 41793
quote:Market forces. Sainsburys think they can make money in the town so they'll open up. Whether or not we need another supermarket is irrelevant to them. Similarly, I assume Mac's took the best price they could find.
Originally posted by Bubbaoshea
Why do we need another Supermarket anyway? We already have Tesco's and Waitrose, there is no need for a Sainsburys whatsoever. Why couldn't someone have got in there before them and converted the buildings into very smart apartments/homes. That would have made the developers a tidy profit and also would have kept a Hertford 'landmark' still in tact.
Reply ID 41794
quote:I believe the listed older buildings to the West of Hartham Lane are to be retained and Sainsbury are seeking usage for them ("business units, health related").
Originally posted by Bubbaoshea
Why do we need another Supermarket anyway? We already have Tesco's and Waitrose, there is no need for a Sainsburys whatsoever. Why couldn't someone have got in there before them and converted the buildings into very smart apartments/homes. That would have made the developers a tidy profit and also would have kept a Hertford 'landmark' still in tact.
Reply ID 41795
Macs sold to whoever would give them the biggest wad of cash they thought they could ask for and I would imagine that a Supermarket who is looking to trade near to its rivals would offer substantially more than others.. allegedly... My only smile about this situation is I hope the huge artic. lorries make a hell of noise to those bosses working in Macs and inconvenience them at the starts and ends of the working days and also their lunch.. Don't mean to sound so negative, but if I potentially have a disrupted life I sure as hell hope they do... more so!
Reply ID 41796
I hope that there is not a lot of noise as the library (currently) is next door to Macs!!
quote:
Originally posted by Drama Queen
Macs sold to whoever would give them the biggest wad of cash they thought they could ask for and I would imagine that a Supermarket who is looking to trade near to its rivals would offer substantially more than others.. allegedly... My only smile about this situation is I hope the huge artic. lorries make a hell of noise to those bosses working in Macs and inconvenience them at the starts and ends of the working days and also their lunch.. Don't mean to sound so negative, but if I potentially have a disrupted life I sure as hell hope they do... more so!
Reply ID 41797
quote:Having gathered that you are dead against.......what would you like to see done with Mac's? We could perhaps just leave it as an art form entitled "A study of industrial disuse and decay in rubble and rust".
Originally posted by Drama Queen
Macs sold to whoever would give them the biggest wad of cash they thought they could ask for and I would imagine that a Supermarket who is looking to trade near to its rivals would offer substantially more than others.. allegedly... My only smile about this situation is I hope the huge artic. lorries make a hell of noise to those bosses working in Macs and inconvenience them at the starts and ends of the working days and also their lunch.. Don't mean to sound so negative, but if I potentially have a disrupted life I sure as hell hope they do... more so!
Reply ID 41798
quote:There will not be non-stop deliveries to the store, should it be built, and not even 1 an hour.
Originally posted by Drama Queen
Macs sold to whoever would give them the biggest wad of cash they thought they could ask for and I would imagine that a Supermarket who is looking to trade near to its rivals would offer substantially more than others.. allegedly... My only smile about this situation is I hope the huge artic. lorries make a hell of noise to those bosses working in Macs and inconvenience them at the starts and ends of the working days and also their lunch.. Don't mean to sound so negative, but if I potentially have a disrupted life I sure as hell hope they do... more so!
Reply ID 41799
My only concern regarding the articulated lorries is how they will get to the store. They cannot go down Port Hill as the bridge is too weak. They cannot go down St Andrew Street and turn left at Old Cross. The only option is to go through Parliament Square and The Wash and turn right at Old Cross. But even this would be a very tight turn. If there are vehicles waiting to turn right at the junction on to St Andrew Street it would not leave much room. Perhaps they can tell us at the open evening this week.
Reply ID 41800
quote:How do they get into McMullens at the moment? Magic carpet?
Originally posted by Ewoowar
My only concern regarding the articulated lorries is how they will get to the store. They cannot go down Port Hill as the bridge is too weak. They cannot go down St Andrew Street and turn left at Old Cross. The only option is to go through Parliament Square and The Wash and turn right at Old Cross. But even this would be a very tight turn. If there are vehicles waiting to turn right at the junction on to St Andrew Street it would not leave much room. Perhaps they can tell us at the open evening this week.
Reply ID 41801
they might not use articulated lorries to get to the store,they might use rigid LGVs.This would mean more deliveries,but in some towns it is necessary.Tesco in Ware are supplied by either rigid vehicles or rear-wheel steer 8 metre trailers(small LGVs). There might even be an option to have a one-way system put in to avoid some traffic congestion
Reply ID 41802
quote:I have nnever seen an articulated lorry trying to get to McMullens. Granted, Sainsbury have access to smaller lorries but do you really think they are planning to use them?
Originally posted by maggiequote:How do they get into McMullens at the moment? Magic carpet?
Originally posted by Ewoowar
My only concern regarding the articulated lorries is how they will get to the store. They cannot go down Port Hill as the bridge is too weak. They cannot go down St Andrew Street and turn left at Old Cross. The only option is to go through Parliament Square and The Wash and turn right at Old Cross. But even this would be a very tight turn. If there are vehicles waiting to turn right at the junction on to St Andrew Street it would not leave much room. Perhaps they can tell us at the open evening this week.
Reply ID 41803
quote:They have several every morning.
Originally posted by Ewoowar
I have nnever seen an articulated lorry trying to get to McMullens.
Reply ID 41804
quote:Articulated?
Originally posted by maggiequote:They have several every morning.
Originally posted by Ewoowar
I have nnever seen an articulated lorry trying to get to McMullens.
Reply ID 41805
quote:Unsure of what goes in and out now, but when they were operational, it was articulated tankers with 40ft trailers, plus class 2 rigid bodies, which have an even wider turning circle.
Originally posted by Ewoowarquote:Articulated?
Originally posted by maggiequote:They have several every morning.
Originally posted by Ewoowar
I have nnever seen an articulated lorry trying to get to McMullens.
Reply ID 41806
quote:If by articulated you mean the lorries with the cab and trailer that 'swivel'. I.e are not fixed, then yes. Not sure of the length but some are as big as the sainsbury lorries with the pictures of oranges on the side. They get loaded/unloaded with barrels. From memory one regular is a Guinness branded lorry, another says David Murray on the side (I used to know someone with that name which is why I remember it).
Originally posted by Ewoowar
Articulated?
Reply ID 41807
Plan D: Reopen the rail link from Hertford North. Establish Hertford North-East station and sidings for movement of Sainsbury's goods. Passenger cable car service to Bengeo, etc etc... I still don't understand why people think that because big lorries used to drive through town to deliver things, it's still Ok to drive big lorries through town. Perhaps it was wrong then as well? [:)]
Reply ID 41808
quote:Point taken.
Originally posted by shuntquote:Unsure of what goes in and out now, but when they were operational, it was articulated tankers with 40ft trailers, plus class 2 rigid bodies, which have an even wider turning circle.
Originally posted by Ewoowarquote:Articulated?
Originally posted by maggiequote:They have several every morning.
Originally posted by Ewoowar
I have nnever seen an articulated lorry trying to get to McMullens.
Reply ID 41813
Some people seem against the Sainsbury's plan. From what I've seen here,they need to get a coherent arguement together, if they wish to have any success. The Mac's site is brownfield and ideal for a retail developement. It is currently served by LGV vehicles in excess of what Sainsbury would require. Suoermarkets do not increase traffic unless they displace a store in town by buiding one out of town. This is a town center store, so will actually reduce traffic overrall (even Drama Queen might stop driving to Hoddesdon). Therefore, if you wish to object, the only valid objection can be whether the building suits the area.
Reply ID 41814
quote:Supermarkets do increase traffic. Probably more accurately, they displace traffic. Drama Queen might drive to the Hertford Sainsbury store instead of the local Tesco or the Hoddesdon Sainsbury, thereby shifting traffic away from those localities and into the centre of Hertford. In addition, people from outside Hertford might be tempted to drive to the Sainsbury as an alternative to driving to a different store elsewhere, again increasing Hertford traffic. If you build something in Hertford that depends upon people driving to it how could it possibly not increase traffic in that area? Clearly anybody wishing to buy more than a few bags of shopping will drive. The one point I would add is that it would be the only supermarket within walking distance of the West side of town. I for one would walk to it for small shopping loads.
Originally posted by shunt
Some people seem against the Sainsbury's plan. From what I've seen here,they need to get a coherent arguement together, if they wish to have any success. The Mac's site is brownfield and ideal for a retail developement. It is currently served by LGV vehicles in excess of what Sainsbury would require. Suoermarkets do not increase traffic unless they displace a store in town by buiding one out of town. This is a town center store, so will actually reduce traffic overrall (even Drama Queen might stop driving to Hoddesdon). Therefore, if you wish to object, the only valid objection can be whether the building suits the area.
Reply ID 41815
quote:Indeed. Perhaps there should be an informal vote on here to see what sort of opinions are out there? I still believe it'll happen though, sainsburys like tesco are masters at the planning process and not a lot will stop them!
Originally posted by shunt
Some people seem against the Sainsbury's plan.
Reply ID 41818
quote:I will certainly vote for Passenger Cable Car to Bengeo. Is Port Hill getting steeper, or am I getting older[:)]
Originally posted by Ted Badger
Plan D: Reopen the rail link from Hertford North. Establish Hertford North-East station and sidings for movement of Sainsbury's goods. Passenger cable car service to Bengeo, etc etc... I still don't understand why people think that because big lorries used to drive through town to deliver things, it's still Ok to drive big lorries through town. Perhaps it was wrong then as well? [:)]
Reply ID 41819
I can't see that many people would come from outside of Hertford to Sainsbury's for a weekly shop. Hoddesdon, WGC & Stevenage all have Sainsbury's that are far more accesible. I would expect that there may be a mad rush in the few weeks after opening but the novelty would quickly wear off when people realise that the roads around the store cannot support loads of traffic and get fed up with queueing for 20 minutes to get in to the car park. So, it may end up just being locals who use it and then mainly for the odd item that they forget or couldn't get during their weekly shop. A bit like the Co-op in Bengeo but with a bigger car park!
Reply ID 41820
Dear Shunt Since when do supermarkets NOT increase traffic? Have you been into Tescos in Hertford like me? Do you use your car? Have you noticed the carpark seems to be full 24/7? Case rested. What a daft comment to make. Do you honestly think that buying £100 worth of groceries a week means you can lug it around without using some sort of vehicle? Come on please, mums have kids to feed, we all pop in after work/before work - in cars! I don't know why Macs sold their bit of company site off.. I don't like empty sites, but as they are still very much an operational company, I thought it was just to make their owners a bit of money... I am in favour of competition to stores, definitely, but there is no point if people in the town, going about their everyday lives of going to work/school/college etc cannot even move out of their driveways because the congestion is so bad... It doesn't make economic sense...Until the Mercury reported Sainsburys had bought Macs old brewery site I had no idea they were selling it! But as I have said in my previous posts, I have grave reservations but I am going to the Corn Exchange tomorrow evening to see if I can allay my fears or not.. It will be too late when the town snarls up and all of you moan how bad the place is so I guess the sensible thing to do is to ask the awkward questions....
Reply ID 41822
quote:I think a lot of cars parked at Tesco are local workers or people parking to go into town. The amount of times I go there and the car park is full but there is hardly anyone in the actual store. That is down to their lack of parking controls. And don't get me started on people without kids parking in the parent and child bays [:(!]
Originally posted by Drama Queen
Dear Shunt Since when do supermarkets NOT increase traffic? Have you been into Tescos in Hertford like me? Do you use your car? Have you noticed the carpark seems to be full 24/7? Case rested. What a daft comment to make. Do you honestly think that buying £100 worth of groceries a week means you can lug it around without using some sort of vehicle? Come on please, mums have kids to feed, we all pop in after work/before work - in cars! I don't know why Macs sold their bit of company site off.. I don't like empty sites, but as they are still very much an operational company, I thought it was just to make their owners a bit of money... I am in favour of competition to stores, definitely, but there is no point if people in the town, going about their everyday lives of going to work/school/college etc cannot even move out of their driveways because the congestion is so bad... It doesn't make economic sense...Until the Mercury reported Sainsburys had bought Macs old brewery site I had no idea they were selling it! But as I have said in my previous posts, I have grave reservations but I am going to the Corn Exchange tomorrow evening to see if I can allay my fears or not.. It will be too late when the town snarls up and all of you moan how bad the place is so I guess the sensible thing to do is to ask the awkward questions....
Reply ID 41825
quote:Try some Department of the Environment, Food & Rural affair statistics: 3. Food transport has significant and growing impacts. Food transport accounted for an estimated 30 billion vehicle kilometres in 2002, of which 82% are in the UK. Road transport accounts for most of the vehicle kilometres, split between cars, HGVs and LGVs. Food transport accounts for 25% of all HGV vehicle kilometres in the UK. Food transport produced 19 million tonnes of carbon dioxide in 2002, of which 10 million tonnes were emitted in the UK (almost all from road transport), representing 1.8% of the total annual UK CO2 emissions, and 8.7% of the total emissions of the UK road sector. Reference: [url]http://statistics.defra.gov.uk/esg/reports/foodmiles/execsumm.pdf[/url]
Originally posted by shunt Supermarkets do not increase traffic...
Reply ID 41826
If it puts wonderful Waitrose out of business I'll be fuming.
Reply ID 41828
Hopefully a new Sainsbury store will take people out of Tesco in Hertford and this should balance the town up a bit more.The Tesco in Hertford has always over-traded,at one time,it was one of Tesco's best trading stores(if they could have expanded,they would have)I don't think there will be a big change in traffic,it will probably be easier to access Hertford East and the Tesco area.
Reply ID 41831
Compare the proposed Sainsbury site with that of Tesco. Tesco is next to a main road, albeit the entrance is via a secondary road. The junction is wide enough to have allowed for traffic lights and separate filter lanes. It's car park also has a separate exit directly onto the main road. The proposed Sainsbury site would be accessed via a fork off a secondary road. The same road provides access to the main car parks of Hartham Park and the swimming pool and gym. I am really interested to see the presentation at the Corn Exchange to see what consideration they have given to traffic.
Reply ID 41833
quote:Maybe Tesco's will want to expand to compete..there's room for a bit more on the side where they've chopped down all those shrubs recently...
Originally posted by dutch knight
Hopefully a new Sainsbury store will take people out of Tesco in Hertford and this should balance the town up a bit more.The Tesco in Hertford has always over-traded,at one time,it was one of Tesco's best trading stores(if they could have expanded,they would have)I don't think there will be a big change in traffic,it will probably be easier to access Hertford East and the Tesco area.
Reply ID 41837
quote:If they had room to expand I'm sure they would have done so already.
Originally posted by Arty
Maybe Tesco's will want to expand to compete..there's room for a bit more on the side where they've chopped down all those shrubs recently...
Reply ID 41839
Weren't they supposed to be swapping locations with the police station at one point?
Reply ID 41842
quote:Therefore opening a new supermarket reduces HGV road miles, because they are closer together. Only when an out of town supermarket displaces town center shopping does mileage increase (Bluewater/Thurrock and Brookfield Farm)and this has been the norm for some years. This is not such a development, but one which is slap-bang in the catchment area which it seeks to serve. Shoppers do not suddenly start shopping or rush out to buy a car because a new shop has opened. They were shopping and driving already, possibly at Tesco, possibly beyond.
Originally posted by Ted Badgerquote:Try some Department of the Environment, Food & Rural affair statistics: 3. Food transport has significant and growing impacts. Food transport accounted for an estimated 30 billion vehicle kilometres in 2002, of which 82% are in the UK. Road transport accounts for most of the vehicle kilometres, split between cars, HGVs and LGVs. Food transport accounts for 25% of all HGV vehicle kilometres in the UK. Food transport produced 19 million tonnes of carbon dioxide in 2002, of which 10 million tonnes were emitted in the UK (almost all from road transport), representing 1.8% of the total annual UK CO2 emissions, and 8.7% of the total emissions of the UK road sector. Reference: [url]http://statistics.defra.gov.uk/esg/reports/foodmiles/execsumm.pdf[/url]
Originally posted by shunt Supermarkets do not increase traffic...
Reply ID 41846
I think I'll retire from this debate. I thought that people might be able to see the implications of opening a supermarket in this location beyond the convenience of having somewhere else to decide to buy their potatoes and bog roll. [:)]
Reply ID 41854
quote:You are missing the point. The propoed new store will displace shoppers and drivers from elsewhere into the middle of Hertford. It's simple really. Build anything that requires hundreds of people to drive to it and they will. For example, imagine if County Hall was sold off for housing development and the council bought the McMullens site for new offices. The situation would be the same, hundreds of cars trying to access the site.
Originally posted by shuntquote:Therefore opening a new supermarket reduces HGV road miles, because they are closer together. Only when an out of town supermarket displaces town center shopping does mileage increase (Bluewater/Thurrock and Brookfield Farm)and this has been the norm for some years. This is not such a development, but one which is slap-bang in the catchment area which it seeks to serve. Shoppers do not suddenly start shopping or rush out to buy a car because a new shop has opened. They were shopping and driving already, possibly at Tesco, possibly beyond.
Originally posted by Ted Badgerquote:Try some Department of the Environment, Food & Rural affair statistics: 3. Food transport has significant and growing impacts. Food transport accounted for an estimated 30 billion vehicle kilometres in 2002, of which 82% are in the UK. Road transport accounts for most of the vehicle kilometres, split between cars, HGVs and LGVs. Food transport accounts for 25% of all HGV vehicle kilometres in the UK. Food transport produced 19 million tonnes of carbon dioxide in 2002, of which 10 million tonnes were emitted in the UK (almost all from road transport), representing 1.8% of the total annual UK CO2 emissions, and 8.7% of the total emissions of the UK road sector. Reference: [url]http://statistics.defra.gov.uk/esg/reports/foodmiles/execsumm.pdf[/url]
Originally posted by shunt Supermarkets do not increase traffic...
Reply ID 41856
I am not missing the point, in that it will alter the balance of traffic in the town as a whole, but there is no economically viable alternative use for this site which would not do so. If you put housing on the mac's site, that would increase traffic as new residents moved into the area. This changes the flow, but it does not add extra cars to the town, assuming that you have not compressed the meaning of "Town Center" to the smaller and older version centered around Old Cross. I am not for or against this development, but I do recognise that, if those which do object wish to have an effect, they need stronger, better thought out arguments than those put so far. There are no problems of access for delivery lorries and only a relocation of traffic through the town, not an increase. I'm not shooting holes just to disagree, but to demonstrate how easily holes can be shot. If you don't want Sainsbury at all, these trifles will not serve your cause and you need a much bigger objection. Otherwise, the areas which might be successfully limited are:- delivery times, loading and waste disposal noise, opening hours, external coolers and plant, late night trolley movements.
Reply ID 41857
I have never stated that I don't want Sainsbury as a whole. I have pointed out the rather obvious fact that sticking a supermarket on the proposed site will will increased the amount of traffic in the area. the fact that it is displaced from elsewhere in Hertford is irrelevant. It is the impact on the immediate locality of the proposed site that is the issue. A point to consider is that a supermarket with it's constant flow of customers as well as peaks must surely generate far more traffic than a housing development. This is not a point that should be used to argue for any forthcoming application to be rejected. However I feel it is remiss of Sainsbury to ignore the fact that there will be an increase in traffic and dismiss the matter by saying, "It’s hard to do much with the road network in Hertford. It’s quite tightly-knit and there’s not much space for changes". Let me put it very simply. Regardless of the hypothetical alternative usage of the site, do you not agree that building a supermarket there will result in an increase in the number of cars using Hartham Lane compared to today, 21st June 2007?
Reply ID 41861
comparing to today isnt fair though is it. you must compare to when the site was open. People seem to have forgotten the traffic that the brewery generated.
Reply ID 41862
Here, here Ewooowar... Well said... I agree totally with all your last comments.. I am off to the Corn Exchange tonight and may get a chance to post what happens tomorrow...
Reply ID 41864
Dear Code When the brewery had lorries they didn't and never have been the size of the supermarket artics... and they didn't have the addition of people in cars and other vehicles going up and down Hartham Lane to the extent they do today.. Trust me, I was born in the town and lived here all 41 years and know a little about the lie of this area. Instead of saying things which are blatantly wrong, go to the Corn Exchange and see what its all about.. Like I am
Reply ID 41865
the statement wasnt wrong, but you have to compare like for like otherwise it's not fair. I wont be going to the meeting tonight because at the end of the day this is going to happen, and there's nothing that can be done to stop it. All that can be done is to have input to shape _how_ it happens.
Reply ID 41867
quote:That sort of deadbeat, defeatist attiutude just infuriates me. It's cynical and poisonous. I suppose you don't vote either because it doesn't change anything. I suppose "Stop Stansted Expansion" should just disband and accept the inevitable - in fact anybody who's prepared to stand up for what they believe in should just go back to bed and accept they're shafted. [:(!]
Originally posted by codek2
I wont be going to the meeting tonight because at the end of the day this is going to happen, and there's nothing that can be done to stop it. All that can be done is to have input to shape _how_ it happens.
Reply ID 41868
ha, not at all. Of course I vote. Thats irrelevant tho, and a completely pathetic thing to bring up which bears no relevace to your ridiculous assumption. In fact i've even attended the council meetings in the past, been one of the incredibly low numbers of people who do actually go to these things. it's absolutely not defeatist - I dont see how the planners can refuse the application, it's a brownfield site, prime for development. The land is of far too high value for nothing to happen there.
Reply ID 41869
The Sainsbury's deal is not a "done thing" and there are still processes which have to be addressed. I back my statements up with facts, not just put in a negative comment, tell everyone eles they are wrong Mr Code and then moan in another post on this forum. I am concerned how it will affect me, although I like Sainsburys' a lot, doesn't mean if I think they are doing something wrong or to my detriment that I am just going to let them carry on. I think about the QEII hospital in WGC and I am fighting that closure too.. or should I just not because its not worth it? It is worth it and I feel I need to have my say, cos if I don't like it, I can only moan if I don't agree or that my fears have not been allayed. I think people who do care about the place they live/work/bring up their children have a right to be heard..I feel sad you tell me I am wrong Code but then don't have the decency to back up your argument by going to the Corn Exchange to see what Sainsburys are doing.. Edited by Admin to insert the word "not" into the first sentence as intended by the poster
Reply ID 41872
i never said going to the corn exchange to air ones views was wrong. however, going to the corn exchange isnt a requirement in order to know the facts. public support or opposal is important which is presumably why they're doing this, but until the application goes to the council there is still just a degree of conjecture. So even things discussed at the corn exchange may not end up being part of the final application. when this happened in hoddesdon it all came down to what sainsburys could do for the town, i.e. a form of bribery. In the end they made some substantial traffic changes and opened up a new covered walkway into the town. oh and offered free parking, but that seems to have gone away now. So from that point of view the more people who go down the better. oh; did you really mean to say "is a done thing" or do you mean "is not a done thing"? confused...
Reply ID 41873
I meant "is not a done deal" I pressed my keys too quickly. Hoddesdon, where I sometimes shop, is a bigger area and had better road access from the start. I know there is much more i want answered. like the noise in renovating the site, the potential risks,as its an older building complex of discovering asbestos which not one person has considered. I hope it isn't there, but hey you never know with older built properties... I won't fight if there is nothing to fight about... But on this instance I think there is.. and I need to see and hear what the cheeses have to say...
Reply ID 41874
well i hope those issues do get addressed satisfactorily! I wouldnt be hugely surprised if they were watching this thread anyway, so it may be they'll be prepared.
Reply ID 41887
I know the supermarket planning systems very well, and I still can't fathom how JS expect to put a supermarket there and not expect it to clog the roads up.
Reply ID 41888
Having spoken to the team this afternoon I think it best I say no more but it is important to go the Corn Exchange and see what is on offer and speak to them. There are things of which they are unaware and need local input. Its part of the process. A lot of benefit to the town can come out of the development but there are still many obstacles in the way. And the only way you''ll really find out is to ask and listen - both sides.
Reply ID 41897
quote:I quite agree John, I would encourage everyone to go and see the exhibition as I did myself this evening (saying you don't need to go to know the facts, as one previous message suggests, is not a valid argument as I see it). I have taken a keen interest in this thread, especially as the proposed development is only five minutes walk from where I live, but thought I would not comment until I had seen the proposals "in the flesh". These are obviously only personal observations but they are the main points I gathered from my first visit: 1. Sainsbury's are clearly keen to go ahead with this development. The small display was well set out and the staff on hand had clearly been well briefed on the main points. 2. The conjestion problem is obviously still a major sticking point as they still have no definitive solutions. I questioned one of the staff about that, suggesting that the only access for HGVs was via Old Cross because of the weak bridge problem coming from Bengeo. His only response was "I believe that to be the case", he would not be pushed any further. 3. As John suggested, they have not done their homework for absolutely every scenario(though generally I would give it a B+). I asked them if they expected there to be an archaeological condition on any planning condition, and they replied with the stock answer of only in the area covered by the APZ (archaeological priority zone). My experience is that any such condition may cover a little more than that and I think they took heed of my comments. 4. There is a little feedback questionnaire to fill in, which I think everyone should do. HOWEVER! it is one of those cleverly worded documents that only really addresses the positive aspects of the development. Again no mention of the potential conjestion problems. Unfortunately, my visit was cut short by the impending Salsa class (and the slick Sainsbury's PR machine was keen to make sure that their exhibition did not impinge on any "local" events), so I will probably have to make another visit tomorrow to get a fuller idea of what's proposed. Meanwhile, I would once again encourage everyone to go and take a look, even those that have accepted that the development will take place as Sainsbury's want, regardless of alternative viewpoints.
Originally posted by sloopjohnb
Having spoken to the team this afternoon I think it best I say no more but it is important to go the Corn Exchange and see what is on offer and speak to them. There are things of which they are unaware and need local input. Its part of the process. A lot of benefit to the town can come out of the development but there are still many obstacles in the way. And the only way you''ll really find out is to ask and listen - both sides.
Reply ID 41898
quote:Agree with much you say Aelle but to me The Elephant in the Room for Sainsbury’s remains, by the reaction of the guys at the exhibition, the access (your point 2). When pressed the initial slick presentation falters & a fairly simple question on the size of delivery lorries was not known & a comparison with the delivery numbers to a comparetible store was only known by one member of the team ("& he's not here right now...") Other issues – the potential footbridges. Sainsburys obviously look on these as potential sweeteners, which is not unreasonable, but have no idea of the impact on Folly residents (including for that matter Swans!.) This part has not really been thought through & is actually out of their gift in terms of planning permission. The potential bridge from the bus station to Thornton St may or may not please residents in that part of the Island!. One guy gave Mrs. C P & I a solemn talk about opening up the bridge from Hartham to Thornton St to vehicular access (then cutting off the current bridge access just past The Barge ) a couple of minutes after the lead guy (who met Sloop earlier) had told me this was out of scope.. I’d give them a B-.. Go visit
Originally posted by Aellequote:I quite agree John, I would encourage everyone to go and see the exhibition as I did myself this evening (saying you don't need to go to know the facts, as one previous message suggests, is not a valid argument as I see it). I have taken a keen interest in this thread, especially as the proposed development is only five minutes walk from where I live, but thought I would not comment until I had seen the proposals "in the flesh". These are obviously only personal observations but they are the main points I gathered from my first visit: 1. Sainsbury's are clearly keen to go ahead with this development. The small display was well set out and the staff on hand had clearly been well briefed on the main points. 2. The conjestion problem is obviously still a major sticking point as they still have no definitive solutions. I questioned one of the staff about that, suggesting that the only access for HGVs was via Old Cross because of the weak bridge problem coming from Bengeo. His only response was "I believe that to be the case", he would not be pushed any further. 3. As John suggested, they have not done their homework for absolutely every scenario(though generally I would give it a B+). I asked them if they expected there to be an archaeological condition on any planning condition, and they replied with the stock answer of only in the area covered by the APZ (archaeological priority zone). My experience is that any such condition may cover a little more than that and I think they took heed of my comments. 4. There is a little feedback questionnaire to fill in, which I think everyone should do. HOWEVER! it is one of those cleverly worded documents that only really addresses the positive aspects of the development. Again no mention of the potential conjestion problems. Unfortunately, my visit was cut short by the impending Salsa class (and the slick Sainsbury's PR machine was keen to make sure that their exhibition did not impinge on any "local" events), so I will probably have to make another visit tomorrow to get a fuller idea of what's proposed. Meanwhile, I would once again encourage everyone to go and take a look, even those that have accepted that the development will take place as Sainsbury's want, regardless of alternative viewpoints.
Originally posted by sloopjohnb
Having spoken to the team this afternoon I think it best I say no more but it is important to go the Corn Exchange and see what is on offer and speak to them. There are things of which they are unaware and need local input. Its part of the process. A lot of benefit to the town can come out of the development but there are still many obstacles in the way. And the only way you''ll really find out is to ask and listen - both sides.
Reply ID 41899
Bear in mind that the Sainsbury guys at the Corn Exchange do this for their living. They present to Joe Public. They are well versed and trained in the language to use and the company line. If you have a point, push them.
Reply ID 41901
Actually Ewoowar, not too sure. This is not a million miles from my day job & only one guy seemed confident in his expertise. The others were either apprentices or having a developmental experience (which I suppose has the advantage of some honest or at least see-through naivety
Reply ID 41902
quote:This is even more worrying. It suggests that they view Hertford as a pushover. They don't even send in their better personnel. C'mon. Give me some one who can answer the tricky questions that fall out of the company script. Otherwise...........what is going on?
Originally posted by Capitalist piglet
Actually Ewoowar, not too sure. This is not a million miles from my day job & only one guy seemed confident in his expertise. The others were either apprentices or having a developmental experience (which I suppose has the advantage of some honest or at least see-through naivety
Reply ID 41905
Just as a light aside, did anyone see the size of the cars in the model? Scaled up I reckon they would be about the size of a Sinclair C5. Maybe this is their perceived answer to the conjestion problem - everyone in Hertford drives a C5 and deliveries are made in the HGV equivalent.
Reply ID 41909
So how was it then? a battle?
Reply ID 41911
I too went to the exhibition last night and would actively encourage all who live/work/use the town to go.. 1) I spoke to a Mr John Mills of Sainsburys at length and the sticking point with the Council is a) access at Hartham is too small for Articulated delivery lorries b) the Council have some issues (not gone into) with the areas development as its within a conservation area. Mr Code suggested its a "done deal" far from it, the horses mouthbit Mr Mills spoke honestly to me for a long time and they are keen to make an impact in the town, but seem to think that people will want to shop to use the free parking!!?? I suggested people wouldn't just want that, they would want to use the supermarket, but the traffic issues and flow are the major sticking point. I also was talking to a local man, a qualified architect, who put to sainsbury's at length, that if you don't have approved access you don't have a plan at all! and he would have been laughed off his uni course! The plans were only put together in the past few weeks so there are major stumbling blocks. My concerns on studying the plans were access and knock-on congestion in an area of the town unable to allow road expansion, the fact that both delivery lorries, brewery lorries, lorries for Ekins and others on the left behind Hartham Chapel (there is a small industrial estate there), workers and visitors to those companies and potentially shoppers to and from the supermarket all using the same road AND... a normal occurance as I witnessed last night, due to the rush hour going home, people had driven onto the junction of Hartham lane which clearly says in big white paint on the road "KEEP CLEAR" and the whole of the town from Hartham Lane, past the Castle Hall was blocked becuase a lady wishing to go to the Swimmingpool, turning right into Hartham Lane (as the customers will usually do) couldn't get across the road because of being blocked! Its interesting, a lot of debate and although I am not articulate, nor a surveyor, Mr Mills was courteous and gave me the time and although couldn't and readily admitted it was a huge problem as they had driven to Hertford themselves and witnessed our towns congestion.. I think its of interest to you all. I like Sainsbury's but hey, wouldn't it have been better to have sited it at the old Hertford Police Station? But guess that plots been lost now....
Reply ID 41912
Whats the next step then? I presume they are going to try to address the plan and come up with a proposal? Ok so it's not a done deal, but it stands to reason that sainsburys have done their analysis and decided it was worth taking the risk, and they are confident they can resolve the issues.. They certainly dont just buy sites randomly for a larf, with the vain hope they'll get permission in the end.
Reply ID 41914
quote:I think you'll find both Sainsburys and Tesco both have significant land banks without any plans.
Originally posted by codek2
Whats the next step then? I presume they are going to try to address the plan and come up with a proposal? Ok so it's not a done deal, but it stands to reason that sainsburys have done their analysis and decided it was worth taking the risk, and they are confident they can resolve the issues.. They certainly dont just buy sites randomly for a larf, with the vain hope they'll get permission in the end.
Reply ID 41919
I am not sure Mr Code what is happening next. They want/require more feedback and they definitely have not got Council approval. I would like to ask any forum members if there is a time we can write to the council department or a person/people dealing with this application and voice our concerns? I think its interesting that the Men in Suits from Sainsburys were concerned about the access, realising its a real issue and I am not sure it can be resolved in its current form.. But again, anyone from the COuncil tell us what the next step after this is???? Do we get a say?
Reply ID 41924
quote:From The Mercury: "Feedback from the exhibition will be noted in planning discussions with East Herts District Council". I would assume this means that feedback from the public and advice from planning officers at The Council will be used by their architects to produce a planning application which will then be formally submitted to The Council.
Originally posted by Drama Queen
I am not sure Mr Code what is happening next.
quote:The time for this would be once a formal planning application has been submitted, rather than what at the moment are just simple "aspirations".
Originally posted by Drama Queen
I would like to ask any forum members if there is a time we can write to the council department or a person/people dealing with this application and voice our concerns?
Reply ID 41927
quote:Wrong. Sainsbury do buy land that has potential in the hope or expectation that they can overcome planning and logistical obstacles. http://business.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1771155,00.html I have not been to the Corn Exchange to see the plans yet, I will get there this afternoon, but my expectation is that it is being used to gauge feelings and understand issues. The Sainsbury PR machine needs to focus on addressing the issues that matter to the people of Hertford and I believe the guys up at the Corn Exchange are feeding views back into the Sainsbury machine.
Originally posted by codek2
Whats the next step then? I presume they are going to try to address the plan and come up with a proposal? Ok so it's not a done deal, but it stands to reason that sainsburys have done their analysis and decided it was worth taking the risk, and they are confident they can resolve the issues.. They certainly dont just buy sites randomly for a larf, with the vain hope they'll get permission in the end.
Reply ID 41931
quote:Indeed they do,the more interesting ones are the brownfield sites. A site such as this in hertford isnt just an investment in the land, with the listed property it brings maintenance headaches too. so there must be more in it other than hoping the value goes up..
I think you'll find both Sainsburys and Tesco both have significant land banks without any plans.
Reply ID 41932
quote:Wrong? eh? right i think you'll find. I said they decided it was worth taking the risk. i.e. in the hope of gaining planning permission. The point is, they've done the analysis, and by their criteria have decided there is a chance, presumably a good one that it will get granted. As others have pointed out, they know the process. They would not buy a site e.g. next to an existing sainsburys just to buy "land" unless they were trying to keep out competitors etc.
Wrong. Sainsbury do buy land that has potential in the hope or expectation that they can overcome planning and logistical obstacles.
Reply ID 41933
Wrong click!
Reply ID 41935
quote:'fraid not. Supermarkets sometimes buy land without any intention of building on it themselves simply to stop a competitor from buying it. Did you not read the article I linked to? "The OFT details the case of one smaller supermarket which claimed it was interested in buying a site in a particular area. It lost out to a rival who bought the land in 2000 but has still failed to develop it. That same rival is now considering bidding for another site in the same location, despite already owning the undeveloped site. The smaller supermarket is convinced this is being done to clock competition."
Originally posted by codek2quote:Wrong? eh? right i think you'll find. I said they decided it was worth taking the risk. i.e. in the hope of gaining planning permission. The point is, they've done the analysis, and by their criteria have decided there is a chance, presumably a good one that it will get granted. As others have pointed out, they know the process. They would not buy a site e.g. next to an existing sainsburys just to buy "land" unless they were trying to keep out competitors etc.
Wrong. Sainsbury do buy land that has potential in the hope or expectation that they can overcome planning and logistical obstacles.
Reply ID 41940
quote:I'm not sure they have! [:)] Having been to the exhibition it seems that they have done very little in the way of a traffic study. There's no mention of it in any of the material they're showing and whilst I was there it was the one thing that everyone was bringing up. The transport specialist who was there said that it was the one issue that came up again and again. He even admitted that he'd not personally been to Old Cross or the junction of Cowbridge and Hartham Lane.
Originally posted by codek2
The point is, they've done the analysis...
Reply ID 41943
Please can someone tell me if this event is repeated, on what days and what times? It may be lazy but I don't want to have to trawl through the 10 pages of this thread so see if the info's already there! :) :)
Reply ID 41944
quote:Perhaps it is a coincidence, but I don't think John Mills works for Sainsbury. John Mills works for PPS Group on behalf of Sainsbury. Who are PPS Group? http://www.ppsgroup.info/ And the following link gives more information on what they do and their methods. http://www.ppsgroup.info/WhatWeDo.aspx The next link is their case study into their tactics on a previous Sainsbury development. John Mills' contact details are at the bottom. http://www.ppsgroup.info/CaseStudies.aspx?page=2 I'm not saying this company is bad or behaving imorraly. But it is worth knowing who you are dealing with. Ultimately, the objective of the PPSGroup is to advise Sainsbury on the strategy to get the store built in Hertford. The inetersts of the public are only valid if they are needed to get the planning permission. It's all about strategy and planning. They can, and will, be as scheming and devious as they need to be in order to achieve their objective. That's their job. Remember, we are not their customer.
Originally posted by Drama Queen
I too went to the exhibition last night and would actively encourage all who live/work/use the town to go.. 1) I spoke to a Mr John Mills of Sainsburys at length and the sticking point with the Council is a) access at Hartham is too small for Articulated delivery lorries b) the Council have some issues (not gone into) with the areas development as its within a conservation area. Mr Code suggested its a "done deal" far from it, the horses mouthbit Mr Mills spoke honestly to me for a long time and they are keen to make an impact in the town, but seem to think that people will want to shop to use the free parking!!?? I suggested people wouldn't just want that, they would want to use the supermarket, but the traffic issues and flow are the major sticking point. I also was talking to a local man, a qualified architect, who put to sainsbury's at length, that if you don't have approved access you don't have a plan at all! and he would have been laughed off his uni course! The plans were only put together in the past few weeks so there are major stumbling blocks. My concerns on studying the plans were access and knock-on congestion in an area of the town unable to allow road expansion, the fact that both delivery lorries, brewery lorries, lorries for Ekins and others on the left behind Hartham Chapel (there is a small industrial estate there), workers and visitors to those companies and potentially shoppers to and from the supermarket all using the same road AND... a normal occurance as I witnessed last night, due to the rush hour going home, people had driven onto the junction of Hartham lane which clearly says in big white paint on the road "KEEP CLEAR" and the whole of the town from Hartham Lane, past the Castle Hall was blocked becuase a lady wishing to go to the Swimmingpool, turning right into Hartham Lane (as the customers will usually do) couldn't get across the road because of being blocked! Its interesting, a lot of debate and although I am not articulate, nor a surveyor, Mr Mills was courteous and gave me the time and although couldn't and readily admitted it was a huge problem as they had driven to Hertford themselves and witnessed our towns congestion.. I think its of interest to you all. I like Sainsbury's but hey, wouldn't it have been better to have sited it at the old Hertford Police Station? But guess that plots been lost now....
Reply ID 41946
quote:You missed the first 2, the final one is Saturday 10am-4pm. Worth a look and a few questions.
Originally posted by Mr P
Please can someone tell me if this event is repeated, on what days and what times? It may be lazy but I don't want to have to trawl through the 10 pages of this thread so see if the info's already there! :) :)
Reply ID 41950
Daft idea. When is everyone going to realise that this isn't a piece of exploitation over draconian government planning legislation, it is simply yet again, another one. The town has been full of it for years, albeit on a much smaller scale and the Tesco development is an example of what should never have happened. Take one look at the car park and surrounding routes there for starters. It seems to me that someone at Herts Highways from Herts County Council offices based at the Rotunda could have put a small spanner in the Sainsbury proposal to start with. After all, that's where the council tax will drift to when the articulated lorries start 'playing' with Old Cross and Cowbridge. If Sainsbury get the project approval, forget the market, just say goodbye to the town.
Reply ID 41965
Thank you James in a nutshell!!! see, I can agree with you SOMETIMES!!!
Reply ID 41974
Now that the consultants have left town I thought you'd like to know the results of my own consultation. There are two main issues which dominate. The first is traffic. The team got off to a good start by booking in to the one hotel in town without a car park (see other threads on this) and had trouble findng long term parking. Cue for a brief resume of traffic management in a small market town. The map over which we held our discussion covered a much wider area than that at the exhibition and in the Mercury; and showed the traffic problems more clearly. I don't think the team were well briefed considering they had spent much time with East Herts and we muct assume MacMullens; they really did start with no idea of the traffic problems this will create. Not just at Old Cross but also on all the access roads such as the A414, A10 etc. I was met by stunned looks as I went on to explain Hertford's catchment area. Cue for talk on Hertford and its hinterland and socio-economic patterns. By now my fees were climbing.[:D] I think they are expecting that this store will draw shoppers from others such as at Hoddesdon and Stevenage so an increase in traffic is inevitable. And James I would agree with you about Highways but .... they are still in negotiations with them over traffic flow and management and as one of the planners said have been for some considerable time. One of the major if not the prime agency whose comments are essential to the scheme once planning is officially submitted is Highways. Who knows what schemes are being discussed to lessen the impact of traffic flow around Old Cross. By Saturday one of the more junior team members only slightly aware of who I was admitted that this had been one of the most mentioned points and they had a lot of work to do (understatement of the year). The other consideration is Folly Island. East Herts told them that this had to be borne in mind in any plan. They didn't explain the history, politics and mentality of the area. More blank looks. Thank God for the Andrews and Thorntons I say for writing covenants about no through traffic on the Island; not to mention modern myths of ransom strips and a long history of opposition to any form of bridges connecting the Island to the bus station, Waitrose delivery yard and a road to Wigan Pier. Clutching my full colour Sainsbury's Committment to Community Recovery I noticed that one of their main objectives in Hertford is 'joined up shopping'. If this doesn't happen then shoppers will remain on site happy to drink coffee in the new coffee shop without any incentive to want to visit the town centre with a boot full of frozen goods (thank you Tigger and James again). The only way is a bridge (see para above). There is an offer of improved signage and maps - thank you - but where is this bridge going to be built given the rejection of the obvious place at Nicholas Lane by the British Heritage and Environment Agency to name but two. I offered my solution for a small fotbridge where Macs/Sainsburys land divides and run a path along the land at Little Hartham to join up with Folly Bridge but there are other considerations here with land ownership, rights of way and so on. Apart from that the building, access roads and landscaping all look quite jolly. If it were down to me as the Planning Officer and I had a look at the map I couldn't see how this could be happily brought into empathy with the rest of the town without knocking down half of Bengeo and the town centre for road widening. But I'm not and hope Sainsbury's carry on consulting. No Kenneth Williams jokes please.
Reply ID 41993
Well said sloopjohnb!!
Reply ID 42011
Well, that was probably the fullest information we've come across in ths process so far. Will Sainsburys share the results of the information given by the public (on those neat little forms they gave out) with the public at large, the Highways Agency, the council, the planning board etc? If any one can remember what they wrote, it would be an idea to send our comments to represetatives therein. Sloop, who do you recommend we email our concerns to? I would most certainly like to give voice in the right direction...!
Reply ID 42015
As Ewoowar has said this was a consultation on behalf of Sainsbury's by a team of independent planners and consultants. I think John Mills who appears to be the lead has his details as per Ewoowar. I met with a rep from Indigo Planning of London: Indigo Planning Limited, Swan Court, Worple Road, London, SW19 4JS - http://www.indigoplanning.com. My contact was Jeff Wilson who to his credit had already spent some time in Hertford and we walked around Bull Plain/Folly Island. The Sainsbury's contact is Robert Oxley, Regional Development Executive - Sainsbury's Supermarkets, 33 Holborn, London, EC1N 2HT. Can only suggest you direct concerns to these people. I think there is a long way to go on this but will say that John Mills took comprehensive notes from our discussion and they were eager to gain knowledge. I suppose everything goes in the mill. Otherwise we might as well throw the whole democratic process in the bin. I am never too sure of how planning applications go but believe you can only really lobby Town and District Councillors once the aplication has been made. I would assume that the Hertford groups will have their own meetings with Sainsburys outside of the planning stages.
Reply ID 42025
I went to the exhibition on Friday and apart from the obvious old cross traffic problem (a biggie admittedly), thought it looked good. Option 1 for the footbridge looked sensible to me (ie. not coming in next to houses) but is there another problem with this option?
Reply ID 42026
quote:I think 'independent' could not be further from the truth. PPSGroup are contracted to Sainsbury. Sainsbury pay PPSGroup. There is NO independent consultation, a point I put directly to Peter Golds. I question why the council is not engaging with the people of Hertford to gauge our opinions on what is such an important decision for the town.
Originally posted by sloopjohnb
As Ewoowar has said this was a consultation on behalf of Sainsbury's by a team of independent planners and consultants.
Reply ID 42031
is there a website to view what sainsbury plan on doing?
Reply ID 42032
Perhaps the Council are a little worried and probably getting bombarded from the public and maybe Macs/Sainsbury's allegedly!!! Who knows!!!!???
Reply ID 42034
quote:They will; As and when a formal planning application goes in.
I question why the council is not engaging with the people of Hertford to gauge our opinions on what is such an important decision for the town.
Reply ID 42046
quote:What makes you so confident? Is there a plan?
Originally posted by codek2quote:They will; As and when a formal planning application goes in.
I question why the council is not engaging with the people of Hertford to gauge our opinions on what is such an important decision for the town.
Reply ID 42047
I went along to the presentation last week and, frankly, I was stunned. When I asked for their thoughts regarding the traffic situation I was referred to the traffic consultant, who was out. He had just walked down to Old Cross. When he returned I spent about 40 minutes discussing the issue. What amazes me is that he had never visited the site before coming to Hertford last Thursday. This is a man who is advising Sainsbury on the traffic issues relating to their proposed development. How can this be achieved if youo do not familiarise yourself with the location? And what amazes me further is their plan to send all traffic for the proposed Sainsbury down a single road, along with all traffic for the park, the swimming pool, the tennis courts and the bowling green. I asked if they were aware of the use of the park and it’s facilities and the traffic it generates. They were oblivious to it. They did not even know that there were tennis courts or that on Saturday mornings there are hundreds of people using the park for childrens football clubs and hundreds more hours later for adults football. I was stunned at their ignorance. How do a consultancy who are creating a strategy for Sainsbury to get the store past planning get it so wrong? How do they turn up in the town for a public ‘consultation’ with such a gaping hole in their plans? You would think that they would visit the town and the site beforehand………but no. You would think they had researched the town to come prepared for the views of the people they were presenting to……..but no. Now, here’s a simple exercise. Go to Google UK. Type ‘hertford’ and ‘sainsburys’ in the search bar and hit enter. When I did this the 4th entry in the results was a link to this very thread. Surely this would have been something that PPSGroup should have done. It is basic research. Not complicated. At the very least they would have been prepared for the tsunami of concern over traffic. Before I went to the presentation I spent 20 minutes having a quick dig around into PPSGroup, just to know who I was dealing with. I would be surprised if the combined effort of PPSGroup had spent more than 20 minutes researching Hertford. I asked the traffic consultant what the expected volume of traffic to the store would be. He gave 2 minutes of waffle about displaced shopping and the demographics of Hertford without answering the question. So I asked again. He said he didn’t know. Strewth! He’s the traffic consultant! If he is advising Sainsbury on traffic issues he must have forecast the volumes, surely. Eventually he worked out a figure of 570 journeys in and out of the store an hour. Just short of 10 cars a minute. Errrrr, how is the junction of Cowbridge and Hartham Lane going to cope with that? The consultant said that the traffic situation would ‘regulate itself’. If the traffic got so bad that it was putting people off shopping at Sainsbury then less people would go and the traffic would naturally reduce to an optimum level. But hang on, if the traffic is increased to that point then it has also increased in St Andrew Street, Cow Bridge, The Wash and Hertford in general…………….so people would be less likely to shop in Hertford in general because of the traffic increase3 caused by Sainsbury. A point which he accepted. The consultant also tried to say that the store would not lead to an increase in people driving into the town. What? My cat could have ripped that argument apart? I won’t bore you with the rather obvious response which, again, the consultant accepted. I asked about the proposal to allow drivers to use the Sainsbury car park and then shop in town. Yes, they said, it was essential to create a dual shopping experience. It will be to the benefit of the town. So I put it to him that Sainsbury do not actually want shoppers leaving their cars in the proposed Sainsbury car park while they shop in the town and sit in the town cafes. Ultimately Sainsbury want as many people as possible to shop in their store and having cars in their car park while shoppers are in town has an adverse impact on that. I fully expect Sainsbury to place a time limit on the car park, if not initially then after a few years. Another point to consider is what would happen if the car park is full of people in the park, at childrens football lessons, at the fair, at the circus, etc, etc, etc. How would Sainsbury limit this sort of activity? Sainsbury and PPSGroup have put a lot of work into producing the plan they showed at the presentation. As PPSGroup stated, they are looking to submit a proposal in the near future. Based upon my experience last Friday I sincerely hope they have enough pragmatism to admit they have seriously underestimated the traffic concerns and that they have enough influence over Sainsbury to consider traffic again before the application is submitted. In the end the traffic consultant turned to his colleagues and said, “I just want to run away”. In general, nice graphics for the presentation but overall it was fundamentally flawed.
Reply ID 42049
In a similar vein to an earlier, post I asked some questions about traffic to one of the ladies from the consultancy firm. With respect to the current on-street parking near the church at the beginning of Hartham Lane and around the corner (Eskins?): she wasn't aware of them but suggested that the road would need to be as wide as possible. To me that suggests that they would like to get rid of them. Visitors parking in the Sainsbury's car park: I ask if that would be free or time limited/charged. She didn't know for sure, but thought that as the council charged at Hartham, then Sainsbury's would need to charge visitors as well. She wasn't aware that parking is (currently) free on Saturday and Sundays in the Hartham car parks.
Reply ID 42050
Just a thought. But, if sainsbury's didn't build on the brewery they would build an out of town venue, within 5-10miles. This would more than likely kill off the town centre and turn Hertford in to a night venue only. Look at places like Stevenage and WGC. Stevenage has had a retail park built that has killed town centre and WGC has had to attract big names to their town centre to keep it going. Also Stevenage is going through a massive regeneration of the town centre currently. I’m not saying we’re going to be another Stevenage or WGC but these are two towns very close to Hertford that are attracting people away from Hertford, so maybe there is a need for Sainsbury to enter town? Rents in town are very high (so not attracting private investment only big brands) and the shopping centre is not the most attractive of venues for out of towners to visit. I’m just saying so don't shot the messenger :)
Reply ID 42051
Dear Mr Bean.. I too mentioned to Mr John Mills of the Sainsbury's lot about the currently free weekend parking at Hartham and how you are not restricted in the time you spend there.. He didn't profess to knowing about any other carparking around the site (!??) nor that it was Free at the weekend nor Hartham Common and swimming pool even existed (!!???) what homework do these people do???? In fact I felt it was a very shoddy PR exercise all round and quite frankly Sainsburys didn't want to know when Tesco's first mooted plans to come into the town and refused the spot on Ware Road. I think we should tell them where to go on that ground alone[:D]
Reply ID 42053
quote:There are already two Sainsbury's less than 5 miles away in Hoddesdon and Welwyn Garden.
Originally posted by teddylad
Just a thought. But, if sainsbury's didn't build on the brewery they would build an out of town venue, within 5-10miles.
Reply ID 42054
quote:Apparently Jeff Wilson of Indigo had done and I hope he continues to do so. I thought so at the time and following Ewoowars brief (!) note and others even more so now, that the team that came to Hertford were seriously underprepared.
When I did this the 4th entry in the results was a link to this very thread. Surely this would have been something that PPSGroup should have done. It is basic research. Not complicated.
Reply ID 42055
quote:Bring on Sainsbury. No problem. Just sort out the rather glaring issues created by the increase in traffic first.
Originally posted by teddylad
Just a thought. But, if sainsbury's didn't build on the brewery they would build an out of town venue, within 5-10miles. This would more than likely kill off the town centre and turn Hertford in to a night venue only. Look at places like Stevenage and WGC. Stevenage has had a retail park built that has killed town centre and WGC has had to attract big names to their town centre to keep it going. Also Stevenage is going through a massive regeneration of the town centre currently. I’m not saying we’re going to be another Stevenage or WGC but these are two towns very close to Hertford that are attracting people away from Hertford, so maybe there is a need for Sainsbury to enter town? Rents in town are very high (so not attracting private investment only big brands) and the shopping centre is not the most attractive of venues for out of towners to visit. I’m just saying so don't shot the messenger :)
Reply ID 42056
quote:Can you explain the role of Indigo?
Originally posted by sloopjohnbquote:Apparently Jeff Wilson of Indigo had done and I hope he continues to do so. I thought so at the time and following Ewoowars brief (!) note and others even more so now, that the team that came to Hertford were seriously underprepared.
When I did this the 4th entry in the results was a link to this very thread. Surely this would have been something that PPSGroup should have done. It is basic research. Not complicated.
Reply ID 42061
quote:Thats just how planning works in the UK. Once planning permission is requested for, all the plans are made publically available and the council requests comment. Doesnt matter whether it's a garage extension, or multi company retail park. Whether or not they respect peoples views though, is another matter!
Originally posted by Ewoowarquote:What makes you so confident? Is there a plan?
Originally posted by codek2quote:They will; As and when a formal planning application goes in.
I question why the council is not engaging with the people of Hertford to gauge our opinions on what is such an important decision for the town.
Reply ID 42063
quote:It should be remembered that inviting comments on a planning application is not the same as asking whether or not the public approves. There are rules governing the criteria that can be used to judge the merits of any particular planning application. Popularity is not one of them.
Originally posted by codek2
Thats just how planning works in the UK. Once planning permission is requested for, all the plans are made publically available and the council requests comment. Doesnt matter whether it's a garage extension, or multi company retail park. Whether or not they respect peoples views though, is another matter!
Reply ID 42065
As stated before, under planning law, general public opinion or a petition will not sway a decision on a planning application, neither will this forum. However, as this application will go to the Development Control Committee, sufficient professional advice will need to be sought and presented thoroughly, by either a 'lawyer for the people' or someone on the committee who is very clever and totally understands the views of the locals. On that note, Highways at The Rotunda, Hertford won't let it happen.
Reply ID 42069
thats why i said it doesnt necessarily matter whether they take any notice. However there have been large cases with tesco where the public have managed to get enough opposition to stop it happening. Other cases however they've failed. Never the less, thats the process and how it works, so perhaps most interestingly the question is when do they expect to put the plans in? after the furore has died down?
Reply ID 42073
I visited the exhibition in town and spoke to someone with a name badge that said 'Robert' on it. I assume this was Sainsbury’s regional development executive Robert Oxley. When I showed him where I live on the model he arrogantly said 'Oh we were thinking of building the bridge through one of those'. Oh were you? How very kind of you to let me know. He assured me that the store would not be open 24 hours and that the car park would be closed at night. I went back the next day and spoke to a chap from PPS (the consultants) to complain that I had not received any correspondance about the development. He apologised and then told me that there was no decision whether the store would be 24 hour and he said he thought the car park would be open 24 hours as it was for th public's use. My conclusions are that Sainsburys have done very little research and carried out no communication with local people. They are prepared to lie to appease people. They act as if they can do what they want where they want. The truth is they are probably right. I have had my house valued by an estate agent with a view to sell up in preparation for the inevitable palnning consent I'm afraid.
Reply ID 42074
quote:I agree. The traffic consultant told me he was surprised by the amount of people with traffic concerns. he said that it was no where near as difficult as the 80,000 sq ft monster Sainsbury are trying to build in Southall. I got the impression Hertford is just one of those small county towns that they can dump a revenue stream on. On the subject of opening hours, Peter Golds told me it would probably open to 10 pm weekdays and 8pm Saturdays.
Originally posted by aubend
I visited the exhibition in town and spoke to someone with a name badge that said 'Robert' on it. I assume this was Sainsbury’s regional development executive Robert Oxley. When I showed him where I live on the model he arrogantly said 'Oh we were thinking of building the bridge through one of those'. Oh were you? How very kind of you to let me know. He assured me that the store would not be open 24 hours and that the car park would be closed at night. I went back the next day and spoke to a chap from PPS (the consultants) to complain that I had not received any correspondance about the development. He apologised and then told me that there was no decision whether the store would be 24 hour and he said he thought the car park would be open 24 hours as it was for th public's use. My conclusions are that Sainsburys have done very little research and carried out no communication with local people. They are prepared to lie to appease people. They act as if they can do what they want where they want. The truth is they are probably right. I have had my house valued by an estate agent with a view to sell up in preparation for the inevitable palnning consent I'm afraid.
Reply ID 42076
It will never happen Unless Sainsbury wishes to change the road network, Hartham Common Land included. I have just tried to find an overhead picture of Hertford from my library. Has anyone got an overhead view to show the 'potential' access concerns?
Reply ID 42077
quote:The problem is that having spent God knows how much buying the plot and then funding PPSGroup to mess up the community relations exercise they may just put their weight behind the political machine to coerce or force the plan through regardless. "Don't worry, the traffic will be all right. We'll sort it later. And we'll build you a shiny new bridge".
Originally posted by James007
It will never happen Unless Sainsbury wishes to change the road network, Hartham Common Land included. I have just tried to find an overhead picture of Hertford from my library. Has anyone got an overhead view to show the 'potential' access concerns?
Reply ID 42078
quote:Supermarkets like their customers to be able to get to the store. They don't need an unselfish reason to consider traffic issues with such a strong economic one.
Originally posted by Ewoowarquote:The problem is that having spent God knows how much buying the plot and then funding PPSGroup to mess up the community relations exercise they may just put their weight behind the political machine to coerce or force the plan through regardless. "Don't worry, the traffic will be all right. We'll sort it later. And we'll build you a shiny new bridge".
Originally posted by James007
It will never happen Unless Sainsbury wishes to change the road network, Hartham Common Land included. I have just tried to find an overhead picture of Hertford from my library. Has anyone got an overhead view to show the 'potential' access concerns?
Reply ID 42079
The only way they will get their customers in & out of the car park easily is to build a new dual carriageway from Hartham to the A602 near Chapmore End.
Reply ID 42080
quote:Good point. But like the traffic consultant told me, 'critical mass' will regulate the traffic. They will want as many people travelling to the store until the roads can take no more traffic. Then it will regulate itself. That's how it works, honest. The traffic consultant told me.
Originally posted by shuntquote:Supermarkets like their customers to be able to get to the store. They don't need an unselfish reason to consider traffic issues with such a strong economic one.
Originally posted by Ewoowarquote:The problem is that having spent God knows how much buying the plot and then funding PPSGroup to mess up the community relations exercise they may just put their weight behind the political machine to coerce or force the plan through regardless. "Don't worry, the traffic will be all right. We'll sort it later. And we'll build you a shiny new bridge".
Originally posted by James007
It will never happen Unless Sainsbury wishes to change the road network, Hartham Common Land included. I have just tried to find an overhead picture of Hertford from my library. Has anyone got an overhead view to show the 'potential' access concerns?
Reply ID 42081
quote:Sounds a bit like Malthusian Population Theory to me & nearly as unpleasant.
Originally posted by Ewoowar
[quote]Originally posted by shunt
[quote]Originally posted by Ewoowar
[quote]Originally posted by James007
It will never happen Unless Sainsbury wishes to change the road network, Hartham Common Land included. Good point. But like the traffic consultant told me, 'critical mass' will regulate the traffic. They will want as many people travelling to the store until the roads can take no more traffic. Then it will regulate itself. That's how it works, honest. The traffic consultant told me.
Reply ID 42082
quote:Perhaps Thomas Malthus had time to ruminate upon his theory as he waited at the deli counter.
Originally posted by Capitalist pigletquote:Sounds a bit like Malthusian Population Theory to me & nearly as unpleasant.
Originally posted by Ewoowar
[quote]Originally posted by shunt
[quote]Originally posted by Ewoowar
[quote]Originally posted by James007
It will never happen Unless Sainsbury wishes to change the road network, Hartham Common Land included. Good point. But like the traffic consultant told me, 'critical mass' will regulate the traffic. They will want as many people travelling to the store until the roads can take no more traffic. Then it will regulate itself. That's how it works, honest. The traffic consultant told me.
Reply ID 42083
quote:I agree. Everything else they could probably make work but the access issue will be the sticking point. From everything that's been posted here I can only conclude that they've not done their homework properly. They focussed solely on the economics without considering the peripherals. [url="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=hertford,+uk&ie=UTF8&ll=51.798053,-0.08052&spn=0.003145,0.007221&t=k&z=17&iwloc=addr&om=1"]Old Cross and Cowbridge on Google Maps[/url]
Originally posted by James007
It will never happen Unless Sainsbury wishes to change the road network, Hartham Common Land included. I have just tried to find an overhead picture of Hertford from my library. Has anyone got an overhead view to show the 'potential' access concerns?
Reply ID 42088
Ironically when I got back on Friday night after the exhibition of plans, there was a large piece on evening news about a Sainsbury;s being objected to by the locals, I couldn't tell you where but they were fighting them tooth and nail and had local MP's backing! People are not just going to roll over and see their towns/villages be swept away like this and the objectors had access, size and environmental issues and were, according to the piece, winning.. I am all for competition, but not at the price of losing free parking to use Hartham at weekends, a never-ending snarl up of all traffic, in out and about of Hertford, Folly Islanders being bridged over if they don't want it and all so I can buy a different brand of baked beans.. I quite like my town and as M&S have proved, just because you are a big giant, you can scale down and have empathy with the environment and not change the dynamics.. I think PR is important to all these Supermarkets and maybe the council don't think they need to take notice.. well we vote these councillors in, we can vote them out and make a difference if necessary...
Reply ID 42090
quote:I think it might have been Barnes..........and Sainsbury won.
Originally posted by Drama Queen
Ironically when I got back on Friday night after the exhibition of plans, there was a large piece on evening news about a Sainsbury;s being objected to by the locals, I couldn't tell you where but they were fighting them tooth and nail and had local MP's backing! People are not just going to roll over and see their towns/villages be swept away like this and the objectors had access, size and environmental issues and were, according to the piece, winning.. I am all for competition, but not at the price of losing free parking to use Hartham at weekends, a never-ending snarl up of all traffic, in out and about of Hertford, Folly Islanders being bridged over if they don't want it and all so I can buy a different brand of baked beans.. I quite like my town and as M&S have proved, just because you are a big giant, you can scale down and have empathy with the environment and not change the dynamics.. I think PR is important to all these Supermarkets and maybe the council don't think they need to take notice.. well we vote these councillors in, we can vote them out and make a difference if necessary...
Reply ID 42091
presumably, isnt there an traffic onus on the council here? if they let it happen and dont get sainsburys to fix the road network, in 2 yrs time when it's gridlock, wont the council become responsible for fixing it, leaving sainsburys off the hook? So if thats the case, i'd imagine the council will really want sainsburys to do at least something to help now rather than later!
Reply ID 42093
One point that made me laugh. While I was at the presentation someone asked how a supermarket fits with the land being designated as for employment. The response from PPSGroup was that the supermarket IS employment. I pointed out that it IS NOT employment, it is retail. They responded by saying that people would be employed there so it counts. But using that principle if they built a pig farm there it would be employment for a farmer, if it was a sewage farm it would be employement, if it was a football pitch a groundsman would be employed.
Reply ID 42094
excellent. i vote for a golf course then ;p)
Reply ID 42096
It would seem we have to blame the councillors who make these decisions too, does anyone know who these people are? And what their email addresses are? Phone numbers etc Sainsbury, PPGroup and Indigo are faceless people if we really don't want all this upheaval wouldn't it be better to contact the local councillors who make the decision on Sainsbury moving into town, and who have to face the local community on a day to day basis.
Reply ID 42097
quote:Maybe we can all get together and organise a whip round which might match a theoretical backhander that could be offered to get this planning through... allegedly etc etc
Originally posted by teddylad
It would seem we have to blame the councillors who make these decisions too, does anyone know who these people are? And what their email addresses are? Phone numbers etc Sainsbury, PPGroup and Indigo are faceless people if we really don't want all this upheaval wouldn't it be better to contact the local councillors who make the decision on Sainsbury moving into town, and who have to face the local community on a day to day basis.
Reply ID 42099
quote:Most planning decisions these days are made by a Planning Officer based on Central Government guidelines which are usually in conflict with Local Plans. Look no further than Caffe Nero or Folly Island. Some decisions and I would expect Sainsbury's which have far reaching consequences will go to Planning and Development Committee and then full council at East Herts. Hertford Town Council can only comment on proposals. Councillors therefore have to be very careful in what they say and oppose and on what grounds as they could become personally liable if found to be in conflict with planning regulations laid down by Central government. Cllr Ruffles explained this to me and I can't remember the exact conversation but we were talking about the Folly Island development and although that was expected to go to full council it was decided by a Planning Officer after lengthy and protracted negotiations with the developer and I must say, local opposition. The original 6 houses were reduced to 4 so some local action cannot be all bad. But as has been mentioned you can't actually lobby local councillors until planning application has been made. No doubt all those people have their own views already and not for me to mention them here. The Planning Officer has to take all these views on board, includng Highways and make a decision in the framework of the law. Not so simple anymore.
It would seem we have to blame the councillors who make these decisions too, does anyone know who these people are? And what their email addresses are? Phone numbers etc Sainsbury, PPGroup and Indigo are faceless people if we really don't want all this upheaval wouldn't it be better to contact the local councillors who make the decision on Sainsbury moving into town, and who have to face the local community on a day to day basis.
Reply ID 42100
quote:Local councillors have no power to stop Sainsbury's coming to town. That's a commercial consideration. Only when a formal planning application is submitted do the planning officers and Development Control Committee get involved, although I'm sure informal discussions are taking place about what shape those plans might take. Personally I suspect that Sainsbury's are on solid ground commercially as they claim (quite rightly I beleive) that Tesco are overtrading. I think there's room for Sainsburys, and west of the town centre is a good position, to balance Tesco in the east. From a planning perspective however I think they've cocked up by choosing a wholly inappropriate site.
Originally posted by teddylad
It would seem we have to blame the councillors who make these decisions too, does anyone know who these people are? And what their email addresses are? Phone numbers etc Sainsbury, PPGroup and Indigo are faceless people if we really don't want all this upheaval wouldn't it be better to contact the local councillors who make the decision on Sainsbury moving into town, and who have to face the local community on a day to day basis.
Reply ID 42101
quote:Perhaps they should sell the site to a property developer and find an allternative...........but where?
Originally posted by Stevequote:Local councillors have no power to stop Sainsbury's coming to town. That's a commercial consideration. Only when a formal planning application is submitted do the planning officers and Development Control Committee get involved, although I'm sure informal discussions are taking place about what shape those plans might take. Personally I suspect that Sainsbury's are on solid ground commercially as they claim (quite rightly I beleive) that Tesco are overtrading. I think there's room for Sainsburys, and west of the town centre is a good position, to balance Tesco in the east. From a planning perspective however I think they've cocked up by choosing a wholly inappropriate site.
Originally posted by teddylad
It would seem we have to blame the councillors who make these decisions too, does anyone know who these people are? And what their email addresses are? Phone numbers etc Sainsbury, PPGroup and Indigo are faceless people if we really don't want all this upheaval wouldn't it be better to contact the local councillors who make the decision on Sainsbury moving into town, and who have to face the local community on a day to day basis.
Reply ID 42102
quote:Given that the site is designated as employment land I don't think this would be favourable. And I'm not sure there's much point in speculating where else they might go as sites suitable for a supermarket don't come onto the market every day. Having said that, David Lloyd might be pursuaded to part with Archer's Spring. After all, he's done nothing with it in the last six years!
Originally posted by Ewoowar
Perhaps they should sell the site to a property developer and find an allternative...........but where?
Reply ID 42103
And for those who may think I am being a tad cynical when I suggest that I expect Sainsbury would soon place restrictions on their car park to limit it's use........The following is from The Richmond and Twickenham Times a few weeks ago...... The new car parking system at Sainsbury's in Chiswick has left a nasty taste in the mouths of many drivers after they were slapped with £50 fines over the weekend and sat in lengthy queues after problems at the exit barrier. Hounslow council originally gave consent for the car park with the provison that free parking would be given to non-customers to prevent local trade suffering at the hands of the huge supermarket chain. Previous attempts by Sainsbury's to change this in 2003 were blocked, but it seems they have now got their way, with mixed reactions in Chiswick. Under the new rules, anyone can park for 30 minutes free of charge, but after that it gets more complicated which led to teething problems and irate drivers over the weekend. Non-Sainsbury's customers who use the 450-space car park for up to an hour must pay £1, or £2 for up to two hours. But just one minute over the two-hour limit will mean a £50 fine. There is a loophole however, albeit a lucrative one for Sainsbury's. By spending a minimum of £5 in store your parking will be free for up to three hours. Going over this time will mean a £50 penalty, even if you are a customer. The charges are cheap in theory, but residents fear this is the thin end of the wedge with stealth rises on the horizon. Sainsbury's store manager Peter Ash, insisted: "This is not a revenue-making measure, it is merely stopping people abusing the facilities." One angry resident said: "The supermarket giant has broken the original covenant that was set out years ago just to make more money at the expense of traders in Chiswick." The agreement between Sainsbury's, Clerical Medical and Hounslow Council which was made in 1984. The agreement states "the use of the car park shall be available for up to a maximum of two hours only to all members of the shopping public on similar terms to those subsisting in other council car parks in shopping centres in the borough of Hounslow". The changes came into effect last Tuesday. Chiswick residents and traders have criticised the price rise and shops have already seen a downturn in sales. A Sainsbury's spokesperson, said: "The new car park scheme at our Chiswick store has been introduced as a result of customer feedback. Our customers told us they were frustrated with commuters leaving their cars in the car park all day making it difficult for them to park at the store to do their shopping. The new scheme has been welcomed by our customers and implemented following consultation with Hounslow Council."
Reply ID 42104
quote:It's difficult to see what is being said here. Unless we know what other car parks in Chiswick charge, it's a fairly meaningless bit of local newspaper mischief. If the cost of car parking in Chiswick is £2 for two and a half hours parking, Sainsbury is within it's agreement, but if others are free, it's not.
Originally posted by Ewoowar
And for those who may think I am being a tad cynical when I suggest that I expect Sainsbury would soon place restrictions on their car park to limit it's use........The following is from The Richmond and Twickenham Times a few weeks ago...... The new car parking system at Sainsbury's in Chiswick has left a nasty taste in the mouths of many drivers after they were slapped with £50 fines over the weekend and sat in lengthy queues after problems at the exit barrier. Hounslow council originally gave consent for the car park with the provison that free parking would be given to non-customers to prevent local trade suffering at the hands of the huge supermarket chain. Previous attempts by Sainsbury's to change this in 2003 were blocked, but it seems they have now got their way, with mixed reactions in Chiswick. Under the new rules, anyone can park for 30 minutes free of charge, but after that it gets more complicated which led to teething problems and irate drivers over the weekend. Non-Sainsbury's customers who use the 450-space car park for up to an hour must pay £1, or £2 for up to two hours. But just one minute over the two-hour limit will mean a £50 fine. There is a loophole however, albeit a lucrative one for Sainsbury's. By spending a minimum of £5 in store your parking will be free for up to three hours. Going over this time will mean a £50 penalty, even if you are a customer. The charges are cheap in theory, but residents fear this is the thin end of the wedge with stealth rises on the horizon. Sainsbury's store manager Peter Ash, insisted: "This is not a revenue-making measure, it is merely stopping people abusing the facilities." One angry resident said: "The supermarket giant has broken the original covenant that was set out years ago just to make more money at the expense of traders in Chiswick." The agreement between Sainsbury's, Clerical Medical and Hounslow Council which was made in 1984. The agreement states "the use of the car park shall be available for up to a maximum of two hours only to all members of the shopping public on similar terms to those subsisting in other council car parks in shopping centres in the borough of Hounslow". The changes came into effect last Tuesday. Chiswick residents and traders have criticised the price rise and shops have already seen a downturn in sales. A Sainsbury's spokesperson, said: "The new car park scheme at our Chiswick store has been introduced as a result of customer feedback. Our customers told us they were frustrated with commuters leaving their cars in the car park all day making it difficult for them to park at the store to do their shopping. The new scheme has been welcomed by our customers and implemented following consultation with Hounslow Council."
Reply ID 42105
quote:It states: "Hounslow council originally gave consent for the car park with the provison that free parking would be given to non-customers to prevent local trade suffering at the hands of the huge supermarket chain. Previous attempts by Sainsbury's to change this in 2003 were blocked, but it seems they have now got their way, with mixed reactions in Chiswick."
Originally posted by shunt It's difficult to see what is being said here. Unless we know what other car parks in Chiswick charge, it's a fairly meaningless bit of local newspaper mischief. If the cost of car parking in Chiswick is £2 for two and a half hours parking, Sainsbury is within it's agreement, but if others are free, it's not.
Reply ID 42106
quote:That's what the newspaper states. If you read the actual words of the agreement futher down, it says nothing of the sort.
Originally posted by Ewoowarquote:It states: "Hounslow council originally gave consent for the car park with the provison that free parking would be given to non-customers to prevent local trade suffering at the hands of the huge supermarket chain. Previous attempts by Sainsbury's to change this in 2003 were blocked, but it seems they have now got their way, with mixed reactions in Chiswick."
Originally posted by shunt It's difficult to see what is being said here. Unless we know what other car parks in Chiswick charge, it's a fairly meaningless bit of local newspaper mischief. If the cost of car parking in Chiswick is £2 for two and a half hours parking, Sainsbury is within it's agreement, but if others are free, it's not.
Reply ID 42108
Just checked and Sainsbury is not providing parking on "similar terms" to other parking in the Chiswick area, as it agreed in 1984. It's still cheaper for the first half hour more expensive for the next half hour and the same after that.
Reply ID 42110
It was recently reported in the press that the residents of Cuffley had a local poll/referendum on whether they wanted a new Tesco built in their village. Although it was not binding, the fact that result was a categorical “no” will add impetus to the campaign to stop the store from being built. On that basis, here’s what I would do, if I had time. 1) Write to Sainsbury and ask if they will provide £10k or so to fund a local vote on the issue. 2) When Sainsbury say no, approach Tesco and Waitrose – I dare say, if you spoke to the right manager, they would be forthcoming in sponsoring a public vote for the simple reason it would help defend their commercial positions 3) If you are successful in find the funds, have a private company poll everyone in Hertford. 4) Present the resounding “no” to the council and to Sainsbury and ask that the proposal be withdrawn. Does anyone have the time to do these things? There must be a busybody out there somewhere?!
Reply ID 42112
quote:Look at these views!! Articulated lorries by the dozen every hour down Bengeo Street, St Andrew Street, Millbridge etc. It can't be done. Does anyone know what the size of this store is planned to be and whether a petrol area is also planned? (Apologies, I haven't read the doc).
Originally posted by Stevequote:I agree. Everything else they could probably make work but the access issue will be the sticking point. From everything that's been posted here I can only conclude that they've not done their homework properly. They focussed solely on the economics without considering the peripherals. [url="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=hertford,+uk&ie=UTF8&ll=51.798053,-0.08052&spn=0.003145,0.007221&t=k&z=17&iwloc=addr&om=1"]Old Cross and Cowbridge on Google Maps[/url]
Originally posted by James007
It will never happen Unless Sainsbury wishes to change the road network, Hartham Common Land included. I have just tried to find an overhead picture of Hertford from my library. Has anyone got an overhead view to show the 'potential' access concerns?
Reply ID 42123
MDT I think that’s a great idea however I don't believe that Tesco's are stopping their development in Cuffley and I bet they will go ahead with it, especially with Sir Terry Lehey (Tesco CEO) living in the village. What about the campaign website http://www.saynotosainsbury.co.uk it is still available for someone to buy (bet it wont be by the end of the day). We could all sign up there and e-present that to the local MP, council, Sainsbury HQ (Holborn)
Reply ID 42124
quote:Just checked myself........the orginal legal cause states: To provide a short term shoppers car park on such terms as to use operation and payment by the shopping public as may be previously agreed with the Council before the development opens for trading and notwithstanding the generality of the foregoing to provide: (i) That the use of the car park shall be available for up to a maximum of two hours only to all members of the shopping public on similar terms to those subsisting in other Council car parks in shopping centres in the Borough of Hounslow (ii) that the terms of such operation use and payment shall be applied so as not to encourage commuter parking PROVIDED ALWAYS that J Sainsbury shall at its absolute discretion be entitled to charge or not to charge customers of the Development Regarding the parents who use the car park in order to drop their children off at Belmont School, the spokesperson said "In terms of Safer Routes to School and green travel planning, we would encourage parents to (a) use alternative (and green!) transport instead of driving on the school run, or (b) park safely and legally, be it in the Sainsbury's car park or elsewhere and walk to the school to collect/drop off their children. I guess the trick is ensuring that whatever is put in the original contract does not allow Sainsbury to manipulate the parking restrictions at a later date.
Originally posted by shunt
Just checked and Sainsbury is not providing parking on "similar terms" to other parking in the Chiswick area, as it agreed in 1984. It's still cheaper for the first half hour more expensive for the next half hour and the same after that.
Reply ID 42127
quote:Lorries are not the problem, James. A supermarket doesn't need many and the roads already handle similar traffic. Concentrate on the right turns for customers entering and leaving. That's the flaw in the plan.
Originally posted by James007quote:Look at these views!! Articulated lorries by the dozen every hour down Bengeo Street, St Andrew Street, Millbridge etc. It can't be done. Does anyone know what the size of this store is planned to be and whether a petrol area is also planned? (Apologies, I haven't read the doc).
Originally posted by Stevequote:I agree. Everything else they could probably make work but the access issue will be the sticking point. From everything that's been posted here I can only conclude that they've not done their homework properly. They focussed solely on the economics without considering the peripherals. [url="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=hertford,+uk&ie=UTF8&ll=51.798053,-0.08052&spn=0.003145,0.007221&t=k&z=17&iwloc=addr&om=1"]Old Cross and Cowbridge on Google Maps[/url]
Originally posted by James007
It will never happen Unless Sainsbury wishes to change the road network, Hartham Common Land included. I have just tried to find an overhead picture of Hertford from my library. Has anyone got an overhead view to show the 'potential' access concerns?
Reply ID 42129
quote:The roads most certainly do not already handle similar traffic. As the PPSGroup traffic consultant told me, an estimated 570 journeys per hour to and from the the proposed new Sainsbury car park. This 570 journeys is not there at the moment.
Lorries are not the problem, James. A supermarket doesn't need many and the roads already handle similar traffic. Concentrate on the right turns for customers entering and leaving. That's the flaw in the plan.
Reply ID 42132
quote:I think if you polled the people of Hertford you may find that the majority are in favour of the store. However if you polled opinion on the traffic implications of the current plan I suggest the result would be different.
Originally posted by MDT
It was recently reported in the press that the residents of Cuffley had a local poll/referendum on whether they wanted a new Tesco built in their village. Although it was not binding, the fact that result was a categorical “no” will add impetus to the campaign to stop the store from being built. On that basis, here’s what I would do, if I had time. 1) Write to Sainsbury and ask if they will provide £10k or so to fund a local vote on the issue. 2) When Sainsbury say no, approach Tesco and Waitrose – I dare say, if you spoke to the right manager, they would be forthcoming in sponsoring a public vote for the simple reason it would help defend their commercial positions 3) If you are successful in find the funds, have a private company poll everyone in Hertford. 4) Present the resounding “no” to the council and to Sainsbury and ask that the proposal be withdrawn. Does anyone have the time to do these things? There must be a busybody out there somewhere?!
Reply ID 42133
quote:Lorries. Read again.
Originally posted by Ewoowarquote:The roads most certainly do not already handle similar traffic. As the PPSGroup traffic consultant told me, an estimated 570 journeys per hour to and from the the proposed new Sainsbury car park. This 570 journeys is not there at the moment.
Lorries are not the problem, James. A supermarket doesn't need many and the roads already handle similar traffic. Concentrate on the right turns for customers entering and leaving. That's the flaw in the plan.
Reply ID 42134
quote:I read it as 'traffic' in general.
Originally posted by shuntquote:Lorries. Read again.
Originally posted by Ewoowarquote:The roads most certainly do not already handle similar traffic. As the PPSGroup traffic consultant told me, an estimated 570 journeys per hour to and from the the proposed new Sainsbury car park. This 570 journeys is not there at the moment.
Lorries are not the problem, James. A supermarket doesn't need many and the roads already handle similar traffic. Concentrate on the right turns for customers entering and leaving. That's the flaw in the plan.
Reply ID 42136
quote:Thought so. While we are at it though, where do those 570 shoppers shop now, or are they just really hungry?
Originally posted by Ewoowarquote:I read it as 'traffic' in general.
Originally posted by shuntquote:Lorries. Read again.
Originally posted by Ewoowarquote:The roads most certainly do not already handle similar traffic. As the PPSGroup traffic consultant told me, an estimated 570 journeys per hour to and from the the proposed new Sainsbury car park. This 570 journeys is not there at the moment.
Lorries are not the problem, James. A supermarket doesn't need many and the roads already handle similar traffic. Concentrate on the right turns for customers entering and leaving. That's the flaw in the plan.
Reply ID 42139
quote:See my earlier post about Tesco overtrading
Originally posted by shunt
Thought so. While we are at it though, where do those 570 shoppers shop now, or are they just really hungry?
Reply ID 42142
No doubt Sainsbury's are hoping they will come from Tesco in Hertford. They certainly won't come from WGC, Stevenage, Hoddesdon or Harlow which are far easier to get to. I can see shoppers parking along Cowbridge, Port Vale and all the small side turnings to avoid getting in and out of Hartham Lane.
Reply ID 42145
quote:Doesn't the concept of 'overtrading' conflict with the PPSGroup traffic consultant's theory of critical mass moderating the traffic flow? If the Tesco can overtrade surely the Sainsbury can too?
Originally posted by Stevequote:See my earlier post about Tesco overtrading
Originally posted by shunt
Thought so. While we are at it though, where do those 570 shoppers shop now, or are they just really hungry?
Reply ID 42146
quote:The 570 cars are already on Hertford's roads, currently all trying to get into Tesco area or Bircherly Green, or trying to reach roads out for other supermarkets. Many of them will already pass the roads surrounding Hartham Lane. It will make a difference to the balance of Hertford's traffic, but overall it will spread it more evenly and should reduce overall mileage driven in the town. Hence my comment that the traffic issue has to be viewed at a very local level. The turns in and out of the site, for instance. The term overtrading is applied to a store which has more customers than the floor area can handle.
Originally posted by Ewoowarquote:Doesn't the concept of 'overtrading' conflict with the PPSGroup traffic consultant's theory of critical mass moderating the traffic flow? If the Tesco can overtrade surely the Sainsbury can too?
Originally posted by Stevequote:See my earlier post about Tesco overtrading
Originally posted by shunt
Thought so. While we are at it though, where do those 570 shoppers shop now, or are they just really hungry?
Reply ID 42147
quote:I'll ask again: Can someone please explain to me how articulated lorries are going to negotiate Bengeo Street, Mill Bridge, St Andrew Street, Cowbridge etc? No-on seems to have given an answer, even the PPSGroup Traffic Consultant.
Originally posted by Ewoowarquote:Doesn't the concept of 'overtrading' conflict with the PPSGroup traffic consultant's theory of critical mass moderating the traffic flow? If the Tesco can overtrade surely the Sainsbury can too?
Originally posted by Stevequote:See my earlier post about Tesco overtrading
Originally posted by shunt
Thought so. While we are at it though, where do those 570 shoppers shop now, or are they just really hungry?
Reply ID 42148
quote:James, they do now. Tankers with 40ft trailers have been serving Mac's for years.
Originally posted by James007quote:I'll ask again: Can someone please explain to me how articulated lorries are going to negotiate Bengeo Street, Mill Bridge, St Andrew Street, Cowbridge etc? No-on seems to have given an answer, even the PPSGroup Traffic Consultant.
Originally posted by Ewoowarquote:Doesn't the concept of 'overtrading' conflict with the PPSGroup traffic consultant's theory of critical mass moderating the traffic flow? If the Tesco can overtrade surely the Sainsbury can too?
Originally posted by Stevequote:See my earlier post about Tesco overtrading
Originally posted by shunt
Thought so. While we are at it though, where do those 570 shoppers shop now, or are they just really hungry?
Reply ID 42149
It's all all been reduced due to length restrictions and articulated lorries shouldn't haven't been there Shunt. Artics negotiating Old Cross happens very irregularly and as a resident of Bengeo Street, do you have an idea of what the weight restriction is please?
Reply ID 42151
quote:The 570 cars are not already on Hertfords roads. You are assuming that every single potential customer of the proposed Sainsbury is a Hertford resident. This is wrong.
The 570 cars are already on Hertford's roads, currently all trying to get into Tesco area or Bircherly Green, or trying to reach roads out for other supermarkets. Many of them will already pass the roads surrounding Hartham Lane. It will make a difference to the balance of Hertford's traffic, but overall it will spread it more evenly and should reduce overall mileage driven in the town. Hence my comment that the traffic issue has to be viewed at a very local level. The turns in and out of the site, for instance. The term overtrading is appied to a store which has more customers than the floor area can handle.
Reply ID 42153
quote:But they haven't had to cope with the additional 570 vehicles an hour having to use the junction. I saw an artic exiting Hartham Lane, turning left, a couple of days ago. In Hartham Lane it had to go into the right hand side of the road in order to get round the corner and therefore blocked access to Hartham Lane. It then had to stay there until it had sufficient clear space to turn left towards Old Cross. While it was waiting a car came from Old Cross and indicated right to turn into Hartham Lane. Confronted by an articulated lorry on the wrong side of the road they gave up and drove on. To make matters worse other drivers wishing to exit Hartham Lane filled up the left hand side of the road and the lorry driver had to let them exit first to avoid his trailer crushing them should he try to turn first. When the lorry eventually turned left it crossed onto the right hand side of Cowbridge in order to get round the corner and eventually only got back fully onto the left hand side of the road past the library. How do I know? I let him out.
James, they do now. Tankers with 40ft trailers have been serving Mac's for years.
Reply ID 42158
Exactly, everybody! It is the balance of traffic, not an increase (few places outside Hertford of any size do not have a closer Sainsbury). The lorry issue is a red-herring, imagined increase in traffic can be argued against. Concentrate on the flow of traffic on the immediate approaches. It's the only argument which has no counter.
Reply ID 42159
The deliveries to the store can be regulated so that they arrive at the store early morning or after the evening rush so they won't get stuck in the traffic or block the road.This will benefit Sainsburys and the public using the area
Reply ID 42160
quote:I have been saying it is localised for the entire thread. We are in violent agreement on this point. What I do not agree with is the assumption that every potential customer of the propsed Sainsbury lives in Hertford and drives to the existing supermarkets in town. I also do not agree that the lorry issue is a red herring. It certainly wasn't a flippin' red herring that blocked the junction a couple of days ago. And with the increased amount of traffic ('localised' in your terms) using that junction should the store be built, the impact of said 40 tonne poisson rouge would be amplified.
Originally posted by shunt
Exactly, everybody! It is the balance of traffic, not an increase (few places outside Hertford of any size do not have a closer Sainsbury). The lorry issue is a red-herring, imagined increase in traffic can be argued against. Concentrate on the flow of traffic on the immediate approaches. It's the only argument which has no counter.
Reply ID 42162
Imagine the scenario: 95 cars per hour turning right from Mill Bridge into Old Cross 95 cars per hour turning left from St Andrew Street into Old Cross 95 cars per hour coming down Port Hill into Cowbridge 285 cars per hour trying to get out of the supermarket 1 40ft articulated lorry trying to turn left of Hartham Lane into Old Cross The word gridlock immediately springs to mind.
Reply ID 42173
quote:How if you live on Old Cross/St Andrew Street/Bengeo Street? I don't mean as a vagrant of course.
Originally posted by dutch knight
The deliveries to the store can be regulated so that they arrive at the store early morning or after the evening rush so they won't get stuck in the traffic or block the road.This will benefit Sainsburys and the public using the area
Reply ID 42176
quote:Very, very occasionally Shunt. And not as big (not even too sure on the 40 footers you refer to). An HGV Driver of my acquaintance has given me a short low down on the mechanics involved. It’s almost impossible for the type of artic required to turn into Hartham Lane without perfect conditions, traffic wise. The best way would actually be to reverse.. And as to the 570 vehicles – well say 285 of them are turning right into Hartham Lane + mothers taking their kids to the Pool ( in their 4x4s). A sight jam methinks………… Marmalade perhaps
Originally posted by shuntquote:James, they do now. Tankers with 40ft trailers have been serving Mac's for years.
Originally posted by James007quote:I'll ask again: Can someone please explain to me how articulated lorries are going to negotiate Bengeo Street, Mill Bridge, St Andrew Street, Cowbridge etc? No-on seems to have given an answer, even the PPSGroup Traffic Consultant.
Originally posted by Ewoowarquote:Doesn't the concept of 'overtrading' conflict with the PPSGroup traffic consultant's theory of critical mass moderating the traffic flow? If the Tesco can overtrade surely the Sainsbury can too?
Originally posted by Stevequote:See my earlier post about Tesco overtrading
Originally posted by shunt
Thought so. While we are at it though, where do those 570 shoppers shop now, or are they just really hungry?
Reply ID 42178
And I've just agreed with James. Begads [img]http://www.getsmile.com/emoticons/smileys/y/remybussi.gif[/img][img]
Reply ID 42180
007 has all the best intentions, even for a pig, kat(;-) and any other animal that wants an ear. Even Nora gave me an answer today. Back on-topic, I have looked at the journey and complicated trajectory that an articulated lorry would have to take to gain access to Hartham Lane accessing Hertford from the A10 or A414 via only 3 routes: Via Wadesmill, Chapmore End, Bengeo Street, Port Hill Via Hertford Town Centre (Parliament Square, The Wash, Old Cross etc) Via Cross Road, North Road, St Andrew Street and Old Cross. Acceptable doesn't come into any equation for articulated lorries using these routes. Buses and taxi areas are exhausting the area around the Woolpack and it is hard enough to get a small car to get from the Wash to St Andrew Street at the best of times. It cannot and should not take place. I'd like to tackle these consultants.
Reply ID 42181
quote:Did you get to see the traffic consultant at the Corn Exchange last week?
Originally posted by James007
007 has all the best intentions, even for a pig, kat(;-) and any other animal that wants an ear. Even Nora gave me an answer today. Back on-topic, I have looked at the journey and complicated trajectory that an articulated lorry would have to take to gain access to Hartham Lane accessing Hertford from the A10 or A414 via only 3 routes: Via Wadesmill, Chapmore End, Bengeo Street, Port Hill Via Hertford Town Centre (Parliament Square, The Wash, Old Cross etc) Via Cross Road, North Road, St Andrew Street and Old Cross. Acceptable doesn't come into any equation for articulated lorries using these routes. Buses and taxi areas are exhausting the area around the Woolpack and it is hard enough to get a small car to get from the Wash to St Andrew Street at the best of times. It cannot and should not take place. I'd like to tackle these consultants.
Reply ID 42187
quote:I do live on Bengeo St. I don't find lorries as disturbing or noisy as late night cars at 75mph are. I also have a property interest on Cowbridge so I'm not unaffected by the proposals for the store in either location. We are talking about very few lorries associated with Sainsbury, not an endless fleet. It is a moderately difficult turn into Hartham lane with a long vehicle, but well within the normality of professional driving. I'd be interested to know traffic surveys determine where cars are going. I wonder how many vehicles, which currently pass Hartham lane, are going to shop at Tesco or elsewhere, or returning from having done so. Likewise, how many on the Wash, Gascoigne Way and St. Andrews St are doing the cross town trek to Tesco? Apart from Ware Rd, the whole of Hertford has to drive right through it to shop.
Originally posted by James007quote:How if you live on Old Cross/St Andrew Street/Bengeo Street? I don't mean as a vagrant of course.
Originally posted by dutch knight
The deliveries to the store can be regulated so that they arrive at the store early morning or after the evening rush so they won't get stuck in the traffic or block the road.This will benefit Sainsburys and the public using the area
Reply ID 42188
There was an EHDC traffic survey team counting vehicles at the Old Cross traffic lights and in the Wash when I walked through town just before 9.00 this morning.
Reply ID 42190
James, I'm not sure that articulated lorries can come down from Chapmore End as the bridge at Port Hill won't take the weight. It's also very narrow across the bridge. shunt, it doesn't matter where the traffic for Tesco is coming from. Sainsbury's have said that they expect 570 car journeys per hour in and out of the site. I can't see that much of Tesco's traffic comes in and out of Hartham Lane. Ewoowar, out of interest, what time of day did you see the lorry struggling to get out of Hartham lane? Let's not forget that McMullens will also still be using the area. Sainsbury's may be forced to deliver out of hours, but what about McMullens? Finally, I bet Universal are well pleased.
Reply ID 42192
quote:About 17.15
Originally posted by JohnSmith
Ewoowar, out of interest, what time of day did you see the lorry struggling to get out of Hartham lane? Let's not forget that McMullens will also still be using the area. Sainsbury's may be forced to deliver out of hours, but what about McMullens?
Reply ID 42194
Has anyone considered the potential impact on the Bengeo rat run id the Old Cross junction becomes worse?
Reply ID 42195
quote:But not well within the correct side of the road and not without causing disruption. Been there. Seen it.
It is a moderately difficult turn into Hartham lane with a long vehicle, but well within the normality of professional driving.
Reply ID 42196
Sorry James, weight limit on bridge from Porthill is reason gravel extraction lorries at Chapmore End again cannot come through the town and never will be, the bridge cannot take the weight.. I know that people are saying "they're won't be many lorries in and out of Hartham lane" but if you're a shopper coming out of the lane at the same time a lorry wants to come in, can't see your wing or your ability to get out without being under his wheels! This thread is going to run and run... I will avidly be following our local magazine, The Mercury, to see what's occuring and WHEN/IF decent workable proposals are put forward I will then cast my views/vote or, which I've never done but feel I ought to... wave a placard about and get arrested!!!! [:D]
Reply ID 42199
quote:Sorry but that is rubbish - there are around 5 or 6 every morning at McMullens!
Originally posted by Capitalist piglet
Very, very occasionally Shunt. And not as big (not even too sure on the 40 footers you refer to). An HGV Driver of my acquaintance has given me a short low down on the mechanics involved. It’s almost impossible for the type of artic required to turn into Hartham Lane without perfect conditions, traffic wise. The best way would actually be to reverse.
Reply ID 42200
quote:Indeed, there is a local problem with access which may prove to be the Achilles heal in the plan, but there is unlikely to be an increase in traffic away from the immediate area. If we guess the 570 figure to represent 40% of food shopping related traffic, that means we have 912 vehicles in Hertford on route to Tesco or other retail destinations now. If 15% can access Tesco directly, using no other roads, then 775 are contributing to overall traffic in other areas of Hertford, a proportion of which is Old Cross, St Andrew St, Gascoigne Way, Fore Street and the Wash. Some people will undoubtably still cross town to reach their store of choice, but many more will favour whichever is closest, particularly since traffic in Hertford is a chore to get through at peak times. Hence if the problem of local access can be overcome (I'm not at all sure it can be) traffic to the east of the Old Cross should be improved, simply because less miles will be driven, whereas customers from the west already pass the area on their way to Tesco and are already contributing to traffic there. Customers from Queens Rd area will choose either, so I'd expect the flow from Parliament Square to Old Cross to increase by the same proportion that the flow in the opposite direction decreases. I see the problem as being confined to how they intend to handle the entrance/exit at Hartham Lane, with Old Cross being so close. I can see no solution to that and it may well sink the whole scheme yet.
Originally posted by JohnSmith
James, I'm not sure that articulated lorries can come down from Chapmore End as the bridge at Port Hill won't take the weight. It's also very narrow across the bridge. shunt, it doesn't matter where the traffic for Tesco is coming from. Sainsbury's have said that they expect 570 car journeys per hour in and out of the site. I can't see that much of Tesco's traffic comes in and out of Hartham Lane. Ewoowar, out of interest, what time of day did you see the lorry struggling to get out of Hartham lane? Let's not forget that McMullens will also still be using the area. Sainsbury's may be forced to deliver out of hours, but what about McMullens? Finally, I bet Universal are well pleased.
Reply ID 42203
Where did you get your 40% and 15% figures from? The figures that matter are 285 cars in and 285 cars out of Hartham Lane and Port Hill every hour. That's an awful lot of extra cars going in both directions through Parliament Square, St Andrew Street and Port Hill. Especially when you consider the possibility of gridlock caused by a large vehicle trying to get in our out of Hartham Lane.
Reply ID 42206
quote:As I said, a guess, purely for the purpose of the example. The actual figure could be quite different, but what is sure is that these 570 cars are, for the most part, already in Hertford's roads and many are already passing through the same points on the way to Tesco. They are not "extra" cars, but cars concentrated in one place and therein lies the problem.
Originally posted by JohnSmith
Where did you get your 40% and 15% figures from? The figures that matter are 285 cars in and 285 cars out of Hartham Lane and Port Hill every hour. That's an awful lot of extra cars going in both directions through Parliament Square, St Andrew Street and Port Hill. Especially when you consider the possibility of gridlock caused by a large vehicle trying to get in our out of Hartham Lane.
Reply ID 42213
The Port Hill bridge is already knackered if you look at it closely...
Reply ID 42215
quote:Oh yes. An unintentional speed hump. I've been dreading the day they close it for repairs. This development doesn't effect it though.
Originally posted by Arty
The Port Hill bridge is already knackered if you look at it closely...
Reply ID 42223
If access to the store is going to be a problem for deliveries,due to the volume of traffic,all the deliveries will be scheduled for night-time
Reply ID 42253
quote:Night deliveries are usually restricted in residential areas.
Originally posted by dutch knight
If access to the store is going to be a problem for deliveries,due to the volume of traffic,all the deliveries will be scheduled for night-time
Reply ID 42511
Forgive me if I am going over old ground, but I don't remember dates being discussed before. I have noticed that Sainsbury's expect to get planning permission by March 2008. Seeing that an application has not yet been submitted and I would have thought there would be a reasonable consultation period, does this mean they expect to walk through the planning process, unhindered by factors such as access practicalities and local opposition?
Reply ID 42512
The standard consultation period for any planning application is three weeks. If they submit an application in the Autumn they could quite easily have permission by Christmas. In addition, any planning application would only be submitted after consultation with the local authority, so access practicalities would already have been discussed. They would not submit an application without being fairly confident of it succeding, and to be confident they would need to know what the Council will and will not accept. As for local opposition, strictly speaking you can only object on planning grounds.
Reply ID 42516
quote:Cheers for that Steve. Interesting to know a bit more about the planning procedure. The reason I was wondering about the consultation period was that I recently had a (work related) interest in a large development in Berkhamsted. The planning application was submitted in March last year and the public consultation period went on until October. Planning consent was finally granted last month, fifteen months to the day after the original submission. I just thought the Sainsbury's proposal might also be a drawn out affair.
Originally posted by Steve
The standard consultation period for any planning application is three weeks. If they submit an application in the Autumn they could quite easily have permission by Christmas. In addition, any planning application would only be submitted after consultation with the local authority, so access practicalities would already have been discussed. They would not submit an application without being fairly confident of it succeding, and to be confident they would need to know what the Council will and will not accept. As for local opposition, strictly speaking you can only object on planning grounds.
Reply ID 42522
quote:[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6230444.stm[/url] Nothing can stop them.. Mwah-hah-hah-hah (in best evil laugh voice).
Originally posted by Aelle ...does this mean they expect to walk through the planning process, unhindered by factors such as access practicalities and local opposition?
Reply ID 42600
I heard on LBC Radio this morning that Sainsbury's are going to deliver food to some of their supermarkets near the Thames in London by barge (as it would be quicker). Perhaps they could do the same to the Macs site, with the canal conveniently placed alongside?
Reply ID 42710
Today’s news in City AM that following the recent share holders meeting Sainsbury are going to consider moving into property development and not just retail development, so you never know!!!! Would we be pleased if Sainsbury opened a smaller store and built houses / apartments instead of a massive store? I know I would
Reply ID 42711
quote:Well according to Jeff Wilson of Indigo this is not a goer because that would mean hundreds of cars all leaving for work at the same time and entering Old Cross etc etc. There are such things as shift patterns of course but my gut feeling when I first heard of this plan was that the site would go to housing development. Mainly because of the traffic flow. I think I am wrong.
Would we be pleased if Sainsbury opened a smaller store and built houses / apartments instead of a massive store? I know I would
Reply ID 42712
This whole idea should be laughed out of court. Anyone who thinks giant delivery lorries and all the customer traffic could even get to the old Macs Brewery is out of their mind. Or has large amounts of the folding stuff been passed to the planning dept. so common sense and the good of the town put on hold.
Reply ID 42714
quote:The proposed store is quite small by supermarket standards.
Originally posted by teddylad
...instead of a massive store?
Reply ID 43235
This thread's gone very quiet. The hush before the storm perhaps? Does anyone know if there's any news on a planning application yet?
Reply ID 43236
quote:Maybe everything that's to be said has been said and in the absence of any new information there's nothing more. [:)] No formal planning application as yet. I would surmise they're having informal discussions with The Council and Herts Highways, which I suspect will be somewhat drawn out, given the challenges. Personally I wouldn't expect any news on this for several months, but that's just my humble opinion. [:)]
Originally posted by aubend
This thread's gone very quiet. The hush before the storm perhaps? Does anyone know if there's any news on a planning application yet?
Reply ID 43240
I saw what I took to be a Sainsbury's shoping trolley dumped near (and presumably heading for) the river at Hartham. Could it be part of a scouting party for the invasion fleet, or just a single solitary trolley lost on it's migration route back to Buntingford. ...
Reply ID 43256
quote:Archaeologists in 1000 year's time will have a great time working out why our rivers are full of wire boxes with little wheels!
Originally posted by Ted Badger
I saw what I took to be a Sainsbury's shoping trolley dumped near (and presumably heading for) the river at Hartham. Could it be part of a scouting party for the invasion fleet, or just a single solitary trolley lost on it's migration route back to Buntingford. ...
Reply ID 43257
Its a spy to check out Tesco/Waitrose prices and skim off a bit on baked beans.. The oompa loompas perhaps!! [:D]
Reply ID 43616
quote:According to today's Mercury, Sainsbury's are considering doing this (loading up at Hoddeson).
Originally posted by Ray_by_the_Beane
I heard on LBC Radio this morning that Sainsbury's are going to deliver food to some of their supermarkets near the Thames in London by barge (as it would be quicker). Perhaps they could do the same to the Macs site, with the canal conveniently placed alongside?
Reply ID 43618
quote:Yes I saw that. Call me cynical but this sounds like bullsh*t to me. 'What can we say to make the mugs think we are being really green and environmentally friendly?' 'How about saying we will deliver everything by the river'. Never mind the 200 cars driving to and parking at the place every hour...
Originally posted by Ray_by_the_Beanequote:According to today's Mercury, Sainsbury's are considering doing this (loading up at Hoddeson).
Originally posted by Ray_by_the_Beane
I heard on LBC Radio this morning that Sainsbury's are going to deliver food to some of their supermarkets near the Thames in London by barge (as it would be quicker). Perhaps they could do the same to the Macs site, with the canal conveniently placed alongside?
Reply ID 43619
A quote from one of my favourite poems - Adrian Mitchell 'Nostalgia Threepence off!' - I remember the house where I was taught to play up and play the game though nobody told me what the game was, but we know now don't we. It's a big game aubend - even if none of us are too sure of the rules all of the time; but never take what you read seriously. We all play games - Sainsbury's, me, Councils, the press. Do it for fun!
Reply ID 43620
I think all you need to do is look at the name of the reporter who penned this piece
Reply ID 43624
Something you mike like to consider. Aubend asked why this thread had gone quiet - a reasonable question given the length of time that a planning application of this magnitude will take. It is of great concern to everyone in the town and nearly everyone has a view. So along comes Raymond and writes an article that puts the application back in the public arena and keeps the interest going and he's vilified. It is one way of maintaining the momentum. Let's say that Sainsbury's give the idea some house room - it might just lead to the Governemnt cuts to British Waterways being reviewed as the Lea will need serious dredging and repairing and that can only be good for all those who have an interest in our waterways. And is the MP's special committee wrong as well.
Reply ID 43631
quote:Ok... it's all getting a bit cryptic for me now. So they are saying they might use the canal to deliver goods but they won't really they're just kidding? What jolly japes those pesky consultants get up to!
Originally posted by sloopjohnb
It's a big game aubend - even if none of us are too sure of the rules all of the time; but never take what you read seriously. We all play games - Sainsbury's, me, Councils, the press. Do it for fun!
Reply ID 43935
Bearing in mind that PPS Group are employed by Sainsbury to secure planning permission for the store, and that those of you who went to the public consultation met employees of PPS and not Sainsbury, perhaps the following link may be of interest...... http://blog.twowolves.co.uk/2007/08/21/foul-stench-in-fulham/ It is also worthy of note that they have removed the Sainsbury case study from their web site, along with all the others. Funny, that. For reference the Sainsbury case study stated: "The aim – to secure consent for an extension to Sainsbury’s Witney. At the same time a competitor was seeking permission for a new store. Following some detailed research on the area, PPS devised a consultation programme to meet the aspirations of the community and the council. The programme, which included an exhibition, meetings and proactive media relations, secured a petition signed by 600 local people in favour of Sainsbury’s proposals. The competitor’s proposals included a new supermarket on the site of the local football ground and a new stadium for the town. Their campaign centred on raising community opposition to Sainsbury’s project. However, in contrast to Sainsbury’s carefully managed low-key campaign, the competing retailer urged local residents to telephone the planning committee chairman at his home and the Head of Planning on his direct line to oppose Sainsbury’s application. This approach was received very badly by both, reported widely in the press and criticised at the committee meeting. The application was submitted in February 2005 and planning consent was granted at a special meeting of the committee in June 2005."
Reply ID 43936
quote:Interesting link. I think I read the original report in the ES. So do Fulham not send out achnowledgements to letters they received about planning applications? If they did (as do EHDC) I'm sure people would have come forward to highlight that they had not sent the letters. However, I think the message is clear, PPS employ some controversial methods in support of their customers.
Originally posted by Ewoowar
Bearing in mind that PPS Group are employed by Sainsbury to secure planning permission for the store, and that those of you who went to the public consultation met employees of PPS and not Sainsbury, perhaps the following link may be of interest...... http://blog.twowolves.co.uk/2007/08/21/foul-stench-in-fulham/
Reply ID 43947
The programme can be viewed at the following site......... [url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8576816145694781888&q=DISPATCHES%3A+BRITAIN%E2%80%99S+BAD+HOUSING&total=2&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0"]Dispatches: Britain's Bad Housing[/url]
Reply ID 44675
Just popped into town and saw a group of blokes with hi-vis tops and clipboards at Old Cross so I asked one of them what they were doing. "Traffic survey" he replied. So I enquired if they were recording the actual volume of traffic. "Yes" he said (he was a man of few words). When I asked him who it was for he said he didn't know as they weren't told who their client was. But he did say "its for some development or something". Sainsbury's sprung to mind, any thoughts?
Reply ID 44676
quote:I wonder if they will be there between 09:00 and 12:00 on Saturday when hundreds of people use Hartham Lane to enter the park
Originally posted by Aelle
Just popped into town and saw a group of blokes with hi-vis tops and clipboards at Old Cross so I asked one of them what they were doing. "Traffic survey" he replied. So I enquired if they were recording the actual volume of traffic. "Yes" he said (he was a man of few words). When I asked him who it was for he said he didn't know as they weren't told who their client was. But he did say "its for some development or something". Sainsbury's sprung to mind, any thoughts?
Reply ID 45553
Moan..Moan..Moan ; Cant anyone say something positive about Sainsburys. Well i will. We need another supermarket in this town . Tesco is too small and limited in stock,,Waitrose is even smaller and expensive ... and then there is M&S which is just for yuppy types with too much money to buy posh lunchtime snacks from. Competition is good and we will finally have a real choice of where to buy our basics from. It will also, i believe , revitalise the town center.. we dont want to end up like hatfield do we!!
Reply ID 45554
quote:How will it revitalise the Town Centre? Supermarket Shopping then Home. Will people really bother to 'wander' into the Town. The traffic congestion, not only their delivery lorries, but customers going to the Store will cause congestion and put people off coming to Hertford for it's own merits.
Originally posted by tellithowitis
Moan..Moan..Moan ; Cant anyone say something positive about Sainsburys. Well i will. We need another supermarket in this town . Tesco is too small and limited in stock,,Waitrose is even smaller and expensive ... and then there is M&S which is just for yuppy types with too much money to buy posh lunchtime snacks from. Competition is good and we will finally have a real choice of where to buy our basics from. It will also, i believe , revitalise the town center.. we dont want to end up like hatfield do we!!
Reply ID 45555
quote:Err.. that would be a no then.
Originally posted by tellithowitis
Moan..Moan..Moan ; Cant anyone say something positive about Sainsburys.
Reply ID 45561
Look beyond traffic problems.. which , yes, will be bad during construction but you cant just not build something because of it. If you had an extension built on your house i bet the builders would cause chaos outside and the neighbours would kick up a stink ..but would you? Traffic will i am sure be sorted out .. the whole north road/wash/library junction and beyond is in need of a rethink and i think this project will be the catalysy to do it.
Reply ID 45565
quote:Oh, so you mean there would be no increase in traffic after the construction is completed. Why do you think they intend to build such a big car park if there is not going to be an increase in traffic?
Originally posted by tellithowitis
Look beyond traffic problems.. which , yes, will be bad during construction but you cant just not build something because of it. If you had an extension built on your house i bet the builders would cause chaos outside and the neighbours would kick up a stink ..but would you? Traffic will i am sure be sorted out .. the whole north road/wash/library junction and beyond is in need of a rethink and i think this project will be the catalysy to do it.
Reply ID 45571
quote:It is not just those areas involved. They have to be accessed from somewhere. The traffic will increase, not just with the building work but people using the stores and delivery. It's not just the case of roads, which you seem keen on repairing would take more wear and tear and how would the issue of doing it work, divert traffic, temp traffic control. What about the buildings that will be affected The lights at Old Cross, by which I assume you mean Library Junction are a pain at the best of times. The School Run will start earlier, causing more hassle for those that do drive to Hertford to work or to Commute. No I cannot think of a positive word to say about the location and intentions of Sainsbury's. As planning permission has not been applied for yet we sall just have to wait and see.
Originally posted by tellithowitis
Look beyond traffic problems.. which , yes, will be bad during construction but you cant just not build something because of it. If you had an extension built on your house i bet the builders would cause chaos outside and the neighbours would kick up a stink ..but would you? Traffic will i am sure be sorted out .. the whole north road/wash/library junction and beyond is in need of a rethink and i think this project will be the catalysy to do it.
Reply ID 45572
quote:I'm still puzzled where this alleged extra traffic is suddenly to come from. Potential Sainsbury customers are not sitting at home, feeling hungry, waiting for it to open.
Originally posted by Tiggerquote:It is not just those areas involved. They have to be accessed from somewhere. The traffic will increase, not just with the building work but people using the stores and delivery. It's not just the case of roads, which you seem keen on repairing would take more wear and tear and how would the issue of doing it work, divert traffic, temp traffic control. What about the buildings that will be affected The lights at Old Cross, by which I assume you mean Library Junction are a pain at the best of times. The School Run will start earlier, causing more hassle for those that do drive to Hertford to work or to Commute. No I cannot think of a positive word to say about the location and intentions of Sainsbury's. As planning permission has not been applied for yet we sall just have to wait and see.
Originally posted by tellithowitis
Look beyond traffic problems.. which , yes, will be bad during construction but you cant just not build something because of it. If you had an extension built on your house i bet the builders would cause chaos outside and the neighbours would kick up a stink ..but would you? Traffic will i am sure be sorted out .. the whole north road/wash/library junction and beyond is in need of a rethink and i think this project will be the catalysy to do it.
Reply ID 45576
quote:Why would they open a store if they would not expect cuxtomers? Why would they plan for a huge car park? What do you think the car park is for? Do you think they are going to beam the customers in?
Originally posted by shuntquote:I'm still puzzled where this alleged extra traffic is suddenly to come from. Potential Sainsbury customers are not sitting at home, feeling hungry, waiting for it to open.
Originally posted by Tiggerquote:It is not just those areas involved. They have to be accessed from somewhere. The traffic will increase, not just with the building work but people using the stores and delivery. It's not just the case of roads, which you seem keen on repairing would take more wear and tear and how would the issue of doing it work, divert traffic, temp traffic control. What about the buildings that will be affected The lights at Old Cross, by which I assume you mean Library Junction are a pain at the best of times. The School Run will start earlier, causing more hassle for those that do drive to Hertford to work or to Commute. No I cannot think of a positive word to say about the location and intentions of Sainsbury's. As planning permission has not been applied for yet we sall just have to wait and see.
Originally posted by tellithowitis
Look beyond traffic problems.. which , yes, will be bad during construction but you cant just not build something because of it. If you had an extension built on your house i bet the builders would cause chaos outside and the neighbours would kick up a stink ..but would you? Traffic will i am sure be sorted out .. the whole north road/wash/library junction and beyond is in need of a rethink and i think this project will be the catalysy to do it.
Reply ID 45578
quote:Stop being pedantic. You know what this means - it means extra traffic in the roads around the new supermarket, traffic that would otherwise be elsewhere, probably in the roads around Tesco Hertford or some other local supermarket. The proposed supermarket would generate additional volumes of traffic in the surrounding roads - clear enough?
Originally posted by shunt
I'm still puzzled where this alleged extra traffic is suddenly to come from.
Reply ID 45579
quote:I do get that, but supermarkets do not create traffic unless located out of a town center. A supermarket based within a populated area area should reduce traffic overall, although it may crowd one local set of streets, rather than another. Plainly it is not in the interests of Sainsbury to have the roads around it's store gridlocked as that would deter shoppers. Tesco suffers from access problems because it is the only large supermarket and at one end of the town. Another store which balances the layout will mean shorter journeys overall, hence less traffic.
Originally posted by Stevequote:Stop being pedantic. You know what this means - it means extra traffic in the roads around the new supermarket, traffic that would otherwise be elsewhere, probably in the roads around Tesco Hertford or some other local supermarket. The proposed supermarket would generate additional volumes of traffic in the surrounding roads - clear enough?
Originally posted by shunt
I'm still puzzled where this alleged extra traffic is suddenly to come from.
Reply ID 45580
Sorry but cannot be arsed to read all threads. I heard that this is a dead duck now. Is this true?
Reply ID 45581
quote:Do you mean the Sainsburys is not going to go ahead now?
Originally posted by Wrapper
Sorry but cannot be arsed to read all threads. I heard that this is a dead duck now. Is this true?
Reply ID 45594
I heard last weekend from a reliable source that it is not going to go ahead
Reply ID 45595
How reliable is the source?
Reply ID 45597
This is all very odd Wrapper as I met with a representative from Sainsbury's and their consultant team ten days ago to look at the amended proposals for the bridge. They were hoping to have planning application in by the end of this week. There is a further meeting with Planning this Thursday. As they appear to be buying an extra bit of land off Macs as part of their bridge building exercise; were discussing various Section 106 requests such as CCTV and signage; had some redundant buildings that they wished to offer for community use and came prepared with thick glossy brochures full of plans, artists impressions etc etc I really would like to know who your source is.
Reply ID 45598
quote:Not very it seems [:D]
Originally posted by Ewoowar
How reliable is the source?
Reply ID 45600
Can anyone provide information on the processes that are being (or will need to be) followed in order for this development to proceed? Who approves the development?
Reply ID 45601
quote:The Development Control Committee at East Herts District Council. I would imagine the standard planning process would be followed whereby a plan is submitted, is then open for 3 weeks for the public to comment, following which a Planning Officer prepares a report that recommends approval or rejection by the Development Control Committee, who discuss the matter at one of the monthly meetings and make a decision.
Originally posted by Ewoowar
Can anyone provide information on the processes that are being (or will need to be) followed in order for this development to proceed? Who approves the development?
Reply ID 45602
quote:I really don't see this obsession they seem to have with building a bridge. There is perfectly adequate access onto Folly Island already. Why they have to build another one which no one except Sainsbuys seem to want is beyond me.
Originally posted by sloopjohnb
This is all very odd Wrapper as I met with a representative from Sainsbury's and their consultant team ten days ago to look at the amended proposals for the bridge.
Reply ID 45603
quote:They want to be seen to be providing something for the town. It's a way of easing their way through the planning approval process. It's a simple trade off.......let us stick a supermarket in your town and we'll build you a bridge.
Originally posted by aubendquote:I really don't see this obsession they seem to have with building a bridge. There is perfectly adequate access onto Folly Island already. Why they have to build another one which no one except Sainsbuys seem to want is beyond me.
Originally posted by sloopjohnb
This is all very odd Wrapper as I met with a representative from Sainsbury's and their consultant team ten days ago to look at the amended proposals for the bridge.
Reply ID 45613
No one wants a bridge - apart from East Herts Planning Dept. See other threads. The reason is that with a big supermarket on one side of town and a town centre on the other, they want to build bridges to join them togther. Hence the continual trade-off in Section 106's etc. with Sainsbury's offerring two hour parking so that visitors can shop, walk into town and see what they're missing.
Reply ID 45615
I am reliably informed that the planning process will take a minimum of 13 weeks (government targets I think) before approval or refusal at the next monthly committee meeting thereafter. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if this application goes on for much longer due to its high profile nature and areas of concern; listed building, traffic issues etc
Reply ID 45616
quote:Monday 29th you posted a thread 'is this true?' Then today, Tuesday 30th 'a reliable source told you it was true' Did you have a memory lapse when you posted the 1st question as seeing your 'source' at the weekend would not lead to to the posting then to condradict yourself. Or maybe you can see into the future and your 'source' tells you next weekend...... It's nearly Halloween not April Fools Day [}:)]
Originally posted by Wrapper
I heard last weekend from a reliable source that it is not going to go ahead
Reply ID 45622
'Reliable' doesn't mean 'certain' Tigger. I don't get your beef with Wrapper's post. Surely his/her two posts mean the same, no?
Reply ID 45623
quote:I didn't suggest it did mean certain, just curious as to why Wrapper would ask the question if he had seen his source prior to that at the weekend and then say he had heard from is source the next day. It was not meant to be offensive, just wondering, that's all.
Originally posted by James007
'Reliable' doesn't mean 'certain' Tigger. I don't get your beef with Wrapper's post. Surely his/her two posts mean the same, no?
Reply ID 45648
Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water: [url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7070488.stm"]Probe says 'Too few supermarkets'[/url] More particularly: "It may also decide that any land owned by supermarkets must be sold if it is not developed within a certain amount of time."
Reply ID 45665
quote:I didn't suggest it did mean certain, just curious as to why Wrapper would ask the question if he had seen his source prior to that at the weekend and then say he had heard from is source the next day. It was not meant to be offensive, just wondering, that's all. Somedody told me it was not going through due to the problems with the roads. Is this true or not?
Originally posted by Tigger
[quote]Originally posted by James007
'Reliable' doesn't mean 'certain' Tigger. I don't get your beef with Wrapper's post. Surely his/her two posts mean the same, no?
Reply ID 45667
quote:Cheers James - I am male by the way[:D][:D][:D]
Originally posted by James007
'Reliable' doesn't mean 'certain' Tigger. I don't get your beef with Wrapper's post. Surely his/her two posts mean the same, no?
Reply ID 45687
No offence Wrapper, apologies if I have been out of order. I think sloopjohnb has given the answers so far.
Reply ID 45695
quote:As far as I can surmise there is nothing in the plans to suggest any changes in road layout near of en route. Despite asking the same questions again I get the impression that either Sainsbury's, their consultants or both do not see that traffic issues are a problem at this moment in time. We will have to assume that they have been in protacted negotiations with Highways or enough to satisfy East Herts Planning. They only intend opening 8.00am - 8.00.pm so that might help traffic flow and the car parks will be secured at night. I've only seen so much and in common with everyone else will have to wait to see what detailed proposals they submit as part of the application.
Somedody told me it was not going through due to the problems with the roads. Is this true or not?
Reply ID 45706
quote:08.00 - 20.00 covers the peak traffic times. If they opened 20.00 - 08.00 instead there would be no problem with the traffic.
Originally posted by sloopjohnbquote:As far as I can surmise there is nothing in the plans to suggest any changes in road layout near of en route. Despite asking the same questions again I get the impression that either Sainsbury's, their consultants or both do not see that traffic issues are a problem at this moment in time. We will have to assume that they have been in protacted negotiations with Highways or enough to satisfy East Herts Planning. They only intend opening 8.00am - 8.00.pm so that might help traffic flow and the car parks will be secured at night. I've only seen so much and in common with everyone else will have to wait to see what detailed proposals they submit as part of the application.
Somedody told me it was not going through due to the problems with the roads. Is this true or not?
Reply ID 45729
quote:So my information is incorrect. The plans for a Sainsbury's have not been thrown out but are pending further enquiries.
Originally posted by sloopjohnbquote:As far as I can surmise there is nothing in the plans to suggest any changes in road layout near of en route. Despite asking the same questions again I get the impression that either Sainsbury's, their consultants or both do not see that traffic issues are a problem at this moment in time. We will have to assume that they have been in protacted negotiations with Highways or enough to satisfy East Herts Planning. They only intend opening 8.00am - 8.00.pm so that might help traffic flow and the car parks will be secured at night. I've only seen so much and in common with everyone else will have to wait to see what detailed proposals they submit as part of the application.
Somedody told me it was not going through due to the problems with the roads. Is this true or not?
Reply ID 47277
Merry Christmas!.... Have they started yet?
Reply ID 48684
Wow!! The application has been submitted and includes a wind turbine. Have a look at this little baby. [:0] [url="http://e-services.eastherts.gov.uk/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=3/08/0098/FP&backURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%20%3E%20%3Ca%20href='wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=169921%26StartIndex=1%26SortOrder=APNID:asc%26DispResultsAs=wphappsresweek1%26BackURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E'%3ESearch%20Results%3C/a%3E/"]Sainsbury's planning application[/url]
Reply ID 48685
It's alot bigger that Tesco too. 33,000sq.ft compared to Tesco's 24,000 sq.ft. It has less car park spaces though - 268 compared to the 283 at Tesco.
Reply ID 48687
Admin I started a new thread so people don't have to trawl through 20 pages here. Fancy locking this one now the application is actually alive?
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