Topic ID 2805
I didn't vote because I couldn't be bothered. Seriously, it was too much hassle to go outside and down some crummy place to put a tick in a box. Lifting the pen itself would have burnt much needed calories. Yeah - you heard that right everyone. I couldn't be bothered! I couldn't be bothered! Repeat after me - 'I can't be bothered, I can't be bothered!'.
Reply ID 40435
Whatever
Reply ID 40440
What's the point of this statement?
Reply ID 40444
this individual is quite clearly stupid
Reply ID 40450
Actually you should put a cross in the box...
Reply ID 40452
I always find my local councillor very helpful and am glad he was re-elected. I did bother to vote. Some of these guys carry a lot of weight behind closed doors.[:)]
Reply ID 40457
quote:It’s quite unbelievable that you managed to login and type the post. You'd better go for a lie down and rest your precious head.
Originally posted by carlos
I didn't vote because I couldn't be bothered. Seriously, it was too much hassle to go outside and down some crummy place to put a tick in a box. Lifting the pen itself would have burnt much needed calories. Yeah - you heard that right everyone. I couldn't be bothered! I couldn't be bothered! Repeat after me - 'I can't be bothered, I can't be bothered!'.
Reply ID 40460
Actually it is reasonable not to vote as a statement that none of the candidates stand for what you want. For example in Sele Farm the choices of candidates were Conservative, Labour or Independent. If I don't believe in what any of them stand for I would be within my rights not to vote.
Reply ID 40464
I think you'll find carlos is anything but stupid. I do get the impression he is often disillusioned, pessimistic and suspicious though. Ain't nothing wrong with that. Without such persons we'd all just accept what we are given.
Reply ID 40467
I thought this was a forum where people can express their views. With the exception of Shunt, you all seem a bit frosty. Please let me in. Please let me in to your world.
Reply ID 40483
quote:Not sure you'd want to occupy my world, but you are welcome anytime, whoever you are I have just moved out to the sticks and on the topic of voting, couldn't find my polling station - apparantly it's in someone's kitchen! Hey ho
Originally posted by carlos
I thought this was a forum where people can express their views. With the exception of Shunt, you all seem a bit frosty. Please let me in. Please let me in to your world.
Reply ID 40484
quote:errrrr.........what is the problem?
Originally posted by carlos
I thought this was a forum where people can express their views. With the exception of Shunt, you all seem a bit frosty. Please let me in. Please let me in to your world.
Reply ID 40486
Big woop he chose not to vote. leave him alone
Reply ID 40496
quote:So you think he chooses to create a thread that reads like he has had a labotomy??
Originally posted by shunt
I think you'll find carlos is anything but stupid. I do get the impression he is often disillusioned, pessimistic and suspicious though. Ain't nothing wrong with that. Without such persons we'd all just accept what we are given.
Reply ID 40498
I'm really surprised at all who have replied negatively, everyone is allowed their say however they choose to express it, you should all be ashamed!
Reply ID 40499
Please note that this carlos has nothing to do with me. I voted coz I believe if you don't vote you have no right to complain when the powers that be do something you dislike.
Reply ID 40501
quote:I bet your part of the PC brigade [:D]
Originally posted by Earthmother
I'm really surprised at all who have replied negatively, everyone is allowed their say however they choose to express it, you should all be ashamed!
Reply ID 40502
I have never voted in any local or National election ever. I cant really point to any particular reason, a bit like Carlos im usually busy doing something more enjoyable. I do complain when powers do something i dislike, but then every party that has ever been in power has done things i dislike and are all pretty much of the same i believe.
Reply ID 40504
If there is no candidate who represents, even vaguely, your own point of view, there are few options other than standing yourself. Not voting wouldn't be my method of protest, but it may be valid for carlos. I do, however, agree that there was litle to commend any candidate in the recent elections.
Reply ID 40509
You could always deliberately spoil your vote. Not particularly constructive I admit, but at least not apathetic. In the dim distant past, I was at a university that had a single transferable vote system where you could vote "none of the above". In one election, that "candidate" was returned when people realized the extreme views of the original candidates, thus forcing a re-run.
Reply ID 40510
Carlos stated quite clearly that his reason for not voting was that he couldn't be bothered. This suggests laziness rather than disatisfaction with any of the candidates. Why he would want to let everyone know this, I'm not sure. You can't really base a discussion on it. Laziness is not a local issue.
Reply ID 40511
quote:Now that I like. There should be the option of telling candidates that you are unimpressed, without having to vote for someone equally unimpressive,
Originally posted by Ray_by_the_Beane
You could always deliberately spoil your vote. Not particularly constructive I admit, but at least not apathetic. In the dim distant past, I was at a university that had a single transferable vote system where you could vote "none of the above". In one election, that "candidate" was returned when people realized the extreme views of the original candidates, thus forcing a re-run.
Reply ID 40516
quote:Surely by not being ar*ed to vote you are totally accepting what you are given?
Originally posted by shunt
I think you'll find carlos is anything but stupid. I do get the impression he is often disillusioned, pessimistic and suspicious though. Ain't nothing wrong with that. Without such persons we'd all just accept what we are given.
Reply ID 40521
quote:That would indicate acceptance of the current version of democracy to some. I agree that to reject it may be practically pointless in terms of what is achieved. Apathy can be a protest in some cases. The problem is, rallying the apathetic. Nobody ever turns up to the meetings.[:D]
Originally posted by Leo Densianquote:Surely by not being ar*ed to vote you are totally accepting what you are given?
Originally posted by shunt
I think you'll find carlos is anything but stupid. I do get the impression he is often disillusioned, pessimistic and suspicious though. Ain't nothing wrong with that. Without such persons we'd all just accept what we are given.
Reply ID 40523
At the risk of repeating myself, Carlos stated that he couldn't be bothered, ie laziness.
Reply ID 40525
quote:Indeed true. He may have been bothered if inspired by candidates offered. Carlos is like many others. Voting turn-outs depend on the impression that there is something worth voting for, or that our vote might make a difference. Our traditionally low turn-out indicates that belief is not widely held. Not being bothered is as clear an indication, as standing outside the polling station with a placard, but not as futile. At least by not being bothered, one ensures that you are an incentive to those who would have liked your vote, to come up with something new to get it, rather than adapting to incorporate elements of other candidates policies to not put the "floating" voter off. Apathy is an indication of bland, purposely vague manifestos. Every candidate produced just that in the recent local elections. Carlos post is clearly provocative. One has to wonder why someone so apathetic would be bothered to write it.[}:)]
Originally posted by Steve
At the risk of repeating myself, Carlos stated that he couldn't be bothered, ie laziness.
Reply ID 40529
I personally don't blame you Carlos. In my view anyone who wants to be in power is doing it for dubious motives (e.g. greed or ego). In my ideal world power would be thrust upon random people, not some jumped up little hitler who enjoys hammering the expenses and is not averse to taking the odd back hander.
Reply ID 40530
Lucky for the random person who has no interest thus achieving nothing. I'm sure they would learn to use expenses and take 'backhanders' as you suggest. Maybe society is not as corrupt as you think.
Reply ID 40531
quote:I'm not so sure of that. Many politicians do actually believe in what they are doing and do it to the best of their abilty. Unfortunately it's a bit like religion. What you believe may be entirely at odds with what someone else believes and niether may be right or wrong, but just based on the influences received through life. Hence left and right may see things in each other which they do not see in themselves. Admittedly it does attract a high proportion of a particular character type, but short of making a rule that wanting to be in politics should automatically disqualify, there is no solution to that.
Originally posted by maggie
I personally don't blame you Carlos. In my view anyone who wants to be in power is doing it for dubious motives (e.g. greed or ego). In my ideal world power would be thrust upon random people, not some jumped up little hitler who enjoys hammering the expenses and is not averse to taking the odd back hander.
Reply ID 40532
quote:You're right, it is like religion. And how many priests abuse young boys?
Originally posted by shunt I'm not so sure of that. Many politicians do actually believe in what they are doing and do it to the best of their abilty. Unfortunately it's a bit like religion. What you believe may be entirely at odds with what someone else believes and niether may be right or wrong, but just based on the influences received through life. Hence left and right may see things in each other which they do not see in themselves. Admittedly it does attract a high proportion of a particular character type, but short of making a rule that wanting to be in politics should automatically disqualify, there is no solution to that.
Reply ID 40533
Perhaps wandering, rather dangerously, off topic there Maggie?
Reply ID 40534
quote:Yes - but I was just making the point that often those that seek authority often have alterior motives. The meek shall (or rather should) inherit the earth...
Originally posted by shunt
Perhaps wandering, rather dangerously, off topic there Maggie?
Reply ID 40538
.....and a valid point it is too. I think there is always a trade off in local politics between producing valid policy and just getting elected. In the eighties, cars became very bland in their design because the biggest buyers were fleet users an every innovation was tamed, lest someone didn't like it. Politics is often just like that, particularly local politics. It's hardly surprising that there are many like Carlos who just can't be bothered to vote, when offered a range of "dont rock the boat" candidates. In a way, that is the downfall of democracy. One is asked to trust promises with little means of judging the integrity of the candidate. The only way a candidate can appear safe is to be vague. Hardly inspiring or likely to get Carlos down to his local school to vote.
Reply ID 40553
They tackle this problem in Australia and some northern European nations by making it compulsory to vote.. or a fine/imprisonment.. Sounds fair to me. If you have postal voting, voting by proxy etc, etc, no excuse... My relatives didn't chain themselves to Buck House to see it wasted.... I always vote.. then if I don't get the candidate of choice I can delight in having a real go and exercising my democratic right to tell them they are T**ssers!!!!! [:D]
Reply ID 40560
quote:I just love this. The thought of a whole bunch of drama-queens chained to a royal palace conjures up an image hard to erase.[:D]
Originally posted by Drama Queen
They tackle this problem in Australia and some northern European nations by making it compulsory to vote.. or a fine/imprisonment.. Sounds fair to me. If you have postal voting, voting by proxy etc, etc, no excuse... My relatives didn't chain themselves to Buck House to see it wasted.... I always vote.. then if I don't get the candidate of choice I can delight in having a real go and exercising my democratic right to tell them they are T**ssers!!!!! [:D]
Reply ID 40561
quote:This should only be acceptable if there was a box you could tick labelled 'None of the above'.
Originally posted by Drama Queen
They tackle this problem in Australia and some northern European nations by making it compulsory to vote.. or a fine/imprisonment.. Sounds fair to me. If you have postal voting, voting by proxy etc, etc, no excuse... My relatives didn't chain themselves to Buck House to see it wasted.... I always vote.. then if I don't get the candidate of choice I can delight in having a real go and exercising my democratic right to tell them they are T**ssers!!!!! [:D]
Reply ID 40562
hello! just seeing if I've been banned or not
Reply ID 40563
nope, but congrats, you started a right old tiswas. :-)
Reply ID 40564
hmmm, maybe I haven't been, or maybe this is that sly thing Admin does where it lets me view my own post, but no one else can. Anyway, here goes, lets examine apathy in todays modern democracies! The perception that a limit in an individual’s power to affect change erodes the collective participatory will is key to understanding the rise of an identified collective apathy amongst potential stakeholders within the decision making process. This Collective Action Problem (CAP) manifests itself due to stakeholders holding the perception that it may not be worthwhile to engage in the political process as the benefits to be gained from participation are lesser than the efforts to engage. This leads to non-cooperative behaviour, such as shirking and free-riding, which may impact on the effectiveness of the participatory process. The nature and severity of the CAP varies between sections of society and in some cases is heavily localised. This is especially the case in present day Britain due to the diversity of business interests and heterogeneous social make up in the face of a globalised world. Different groups place different values on local environmental qualities, which has given rise to pluralist interest group politics where time-consuming conflicts are repeatedly played out in the democratic arena. This phenomenon also encourages such groups to identify and defend their interests, therefore developing skills that reinforce the conflict relation in future struggles. Henceforth, we see localist groups engineered to tackle local (and even regional and national) problems, coming to the fore. Examples of this in Hertford are the 'Stop Stansted Expansion' campaign and the various civic societies that seek to bend the participatory process (not just in elections) towards their single and common goals. However, this phenomena has been coupled with a rise in apathy amongst sections of the electorate who have no interest in such issues. This was demonstrated in the mere 33% turn out in the local East Herts elections. And I actually couldn't be bothered to vote as I already hold a position of political power. I'm not telling you what though!
Reply ID 40567
As I pointed out earlier, carlos deliberately presents a controversial view in order to provoke and then sits back to watch. Anybody feel like they've been manipulated entertainment for a bored political game player yet? Kinda worrying that if he does hold a position of power, somebody presumably voted for him. See earlier comments by other posters on suitability of candidates.
Reply ID 40568
I have been found out by Shunt... However, I am sorry to burst everyones bubble but you will actually find that political power does not mainly lie with those who are elected. It lies with the Civil Servants. Why do you think that say Ruth Kelley was Secretary of State for Education and Skills from 2004-2006, and in the May 2006 reshuffle was made Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government and also Minister for Women and Equality? Either we are looking at someone who is an intellectual multi-talented genius (which patently she is not) or someone who merely represents those departments as an elected figure head for public consumption. Take one aspect of the Communities and Local Government dept (which spans around 15 different agendas) - Planning for instance. To be qualified in planning you require a degree, a post graduate planning diploma or Masters accredited by the Royal Town Planning Institute and Chartered membership of the Institute which in all on average takes around six to seven years to achieve. Ruth Kelly does not posess any of these qualifications. I'm sure if you asked her to decide a planning application independantly for a 100 house scheme she would not have a clue, yet she is now the chief arbitrator of planning decisions in the country. How does she do this? It's because she doesn't actually make the decisions, the civil servants will write the report and make the best decision. She will merely sign it off in her name. Take letters from local Councillors for instance. In most cases, these will be written by civil servants and then sent to the Councillor to sign off. It then appears as if the Councillor has made all the decisions. Yes sure, the Councillors hold a modicum of power in the sense that collectively big decisions require their approval. Yet the machinery of Government is so complex that it is impossible to throw in a member of the public, elected as a Councillor, to start making all the decisions. As the dissemination of information and the creation of the consensus building structure lies with the system and henceforth with the unelected civil servants, power therefore belongs to the civil servant in shaping the decision-making agenda. Examples of this can be seen in every local council, where a report with reccomendations will be written for Councillors to take a view on. The civil servant acts as both an information shaper and information controller, therefore they influence the nature of the participatory process, selectively shaping attention to options for action and particular cost and benefits. I am not being merely pessimistic when I say that it is a veneer of democracy that is being presented and consumed by the electorate. In fact, the political system is so complex that it could not work in any other way. What perhaps we have is the most pragmatic solution in a democratic situation.
Reply ID 40569
Much of this is off-topic
Reply ID 40571
Since the entire object of you participation is to be able to troll out these civil-servant speak compositions, of which you seem inordinately proud, why not open a thread with one, assuming yopu can link it to Hertford? As for civil servants having power, that may be true, but they still get paid less than the private sector and become increasingly unemployable the longer they linger in the vivarium which is public office. In short they are the pawns of the true master of politics, money, seduced by the illusion of self-importance.
Reply ID 40572
Hmm, this isn't about money Shunt, but I respect your view on that. With regards to Admins post, I disagree that this is 'off topic'. The thread is about not being bothered to vote: therefore it is about apathy amongst the local electorate. Apathy and the power relation in local politics is a massive local issue. Someone saying they cannot be bothered to vote reflects a wider disengagement with the political system and henceforth this impacts on decisions made at the local level. To take this further with a few examples, it impacts on planning decisions in East Herts, the neglect of Hartham Common, and the poor economic strategy inherant in the town centre shopping environment.
Reply ID 40573
quote:Not if, as you claim, the power rests with civil-servants. Unless a candidate appears who can remove the entire tier of protectionist and job-creating interference, the belief that little will change will keep voters from the polls. Such sweeping changes would not be effective at local level, as the civil service is nationally closely knitted together, to prevent intrusion by the will of the people. They exist by self-justification.
Originally posted by carlos
Hmm, this isn't about money Shunt, but I respect your view on that. With regards to Admins post, I disagree that this is 'off topic'. The thread is about not being bothered to vote: therefore it is about apathy amongst the local electorate. Apathy and the power relation in local politics is a massive local issue. Someone saying they cannot be bothered to vote reflects a wider disengagement with the political system and henceforth this impacts on decisions made at the local level. To take this further with a few examples, it impacts on planning decisions in East Herts, the neglect of Hartham Common, and the poor economic strategy inherant in the town centre shopping environment.
Reply ID 40574
Perhaps you'd like to read this... http://www.hertford.net/yoursay/policy.asp ... and this ... http://www.hertford.net/yoursay/policy.asp
Reply ID 40575
I've got a headache now, thanks!
Reply ID 40576
My apologies. I accept that most departments of the civil-service were formed with good intent. Unlike business though, it's much harder to change your mind when it doesn't work out.
Reply ID 40577
quote:Thats why its the most pragmatic solution in a democratic situation.
Originally posted by shuntquote:Not if, as you claim, the power rests with civil-servants. Unless a candidate appears who can remove the entire tier of protectionist and job-creating interference, the belief that little will change will keep voters from the polls. Such sweeping changes would not be effective at local level, as the civil service is nationally closely knitted together, to prevent intrusion by the will of the people. They exist by self-justification.
Originally posted by carlos
Hmm, this isn't about money Shunt, but I respect your view on that. With regards to Admins post, I disagree that this is 'off topic'. The thread is about not being bothered to vote: therefore it is about apathy amongst the local electorate. Apathy and the power relation in local politics is a massive local issue. Someone saying they cannot be bothered to vote reflects a wider disengagement with the political system and henceforth this impacts on decisions made at the local level. To take this further with a few examples, it impacts on planning decisions in East Herts, the neglect of Hartham Common, and the poor economic strategy inherant in the town centre shopping environment.
Reply ID 40578
quote:If the civil service has a dampening effect on Hertford's politics (which I can see some advantage to) it only remains democratic if the damping factor is representative of the wider population. Since the civil service tends to recruit from within, despite going through the motions of external advertising, the damping factor may actually remove policy from the beliefs of the majority. It is the misfortune of us all that the culture of civil-service is so radically different from the workplace outside. In other words, the best experience a potential job candidate can offer is previous public office, not a wide ranging experience. The same is true in reverse. Hence, what may have been a shock absorber to extremes becomes a mill-stone round the neck of political evolution, which is seen by the potential voter.
Thats why its the most pragmatic solution in a democratic situation.
Reply ID 40586
quote:I haven't - never seen so much bo**ocks in my life so didn't read half of it. Hows that for not being bothered? [^] Lock down please Admin.
Originally posted by nuts
I've got a headache now, thanks!
Reply ID 40588
quote:I think that's the point. If it had started with what carlos wanted to say, it would have gone nowhere much more quickly.
Originally posted by Leo Densianquote:I haven't - never seen so much bo**ocks in my life so didn't read half of it. Hows that for not being bothered? [^] Lock down please Admin.
Originally posted by nuts
I've got a headache now, thanks!
Reply ID 40589
quote:Why lock it? I haven't read any of it yet? Give us a moment?
Originally posted by Leo Densianquote:I haven't - never seen so much bo**ocks in my life so didn't read half of it. Hows that for not being bothered? [^] Lock down please Admin.
Originally posted by nuts
I've got a headache now, thanks!
Reply ID 40590
Hmmm. Start a post so you can use loads of long words and try to appear clever. I think the original 'bothered' post was more thought provoking because despite what you might think in your self acclaimed 'position of power', people just want to get on with their lives as cheaply and with as little hassle as possible. They see politicians and civil servants as self serving egotists who have a jumped up opinion of themselves and try to justify their positions by surrounding themselves in bureaucracy and using long words! They should try surviving in the free market economy to see how real people think and live.
Reply ID 40594
The most boring post since I logged on here. Cumberland sausages anyone?
Reply ID 40599
quote:Can we go to the Snug [}:)]
Originally posted by Wrapper
The most boring post since I logged on here. Cumberland sausages anyone?
Reply ID 40601
Actually I'm not in a position of politcal power - I had you all going there didn't I? ahahahahaha! ahahaha!
Reply ID 40602
quote:t*sser
Originally posted by carlos
Actually I'm not in a position of politcal power - I had you all going there didn't I? ahahahahaha! ahahaha!
Reply ID 40604
What I want to know is - how come when Carlos started this thread he had 40 posts to his name and when he managed to disagree with himself he still had 40 posts? Or are my cookies not turned on?
Reply ID 40605
The number of posts shown for a member is always the current value, not the number when the post was made.
Reply ID 40606
quote:It's because I use the force mate.
Originally posted by sloopjohnb
What I want to know is - how come when Carlos started this thread he had 40 posts to his name and when he managed to disagree with himself he still had 40 posts? Or are my cookies not turned on?
Reply ID 40607
quote:So you're a Jedi now are you? Bless.
Originally posted by carlos
It's because I use the force mate.
Reply ID 40608
quote:I certainly can't be bothered to read all 4 pages of this thread in one day! I can't believe that we all took the bait so well [8D] Got to give Carlos that I suppose! Cumberland sausage debate was much better... [;)]
Originally posted by Tiggerquote:Can we go to the Snug [}:)]
Originally posted by Wrapper
The most boring post since I logged on here. Cumberland sausages anyone?
Reply ID 40609
quote:It was actually the other way round. Many of us already know carlos M.O. He baited his own trap. I do not play games with people or seek to embarrass them, unless they try to do the same to others. Carlos intended to do just that with the members of this forum, crudely and obviously so. His first post could have had no other motive than to manipulate the response he wanted. I'm a great believer in giving enough rope. Maggie just about summed it up, I think.
I certainly can't be bothered to read all 4 pages of this thread in one day! I can't believe that we all took the bait so well [8D] Got to give Carlos that I suppose!
Reply ID 40663
I dunno. Leave you lot alone for 5 days , 5 DAYS!& look what happens... Herbert would be spinning in his Guiness barrel..