Topic ID 2211
I was interested to see the piece about the war memorial in this weeks mercury, I do so agree that is should be treated with much more respect than is currently afforded it. I was not aware that is was used for skateboarding but it just shows how little respect todays young people have for the past and those that sacrificed so much for us. It was so much better as a roundabout, more difficult for everyone to get to, shame they don't put it back like that, it was also better for the traffic flow and I am sure the bus drivers preferred it.
Reply ID 30329
The skateboarders probably do less damage than the cyclists who scrape their frames along it.
Reply ID 30333
Shouldn't it be banned to walk on it? I have never set foot on it and I was brought up not to. Before anyone starts banging on about kids, skateboards and cycles that have rights, so does my good old grandad. I am here, with a point of view, on rememberance day because of him. RIP Grandad. x
Reply ID 30334
I had occassion to inspect the memorial following a similar approach from the British Legion. It is worth going to take a good look. The whole area is scarred by bikes and skateboards. There have been solutions offered but the fact remains - the youths that use this as a playground have little or no respect for the memorial or the people who gave their lives so that they could ride over this area. On the last Fun Day which co-incided i think with VE day the veterans said that the day should go ahead because that is what they were fighting for. Then on the day some idiot in a 4WD insisted on breaking throught the road closure. I told the marshals to stop him as the men who gave him the freedom to drive as he cared were at that moment honouring their colleagues. What did he do? Drove through the barrier almost hitting one of the marshals. It is not just the young that lack respect.
Reply ID 30335
The design needs some simple changes to make it less attractive to skateboarders and bike riders. Such a change was made to the ice house in the Castle grounds to good effect.
Reply ID 30338
Why so surprised? Sadly respect is not taught in schools or by a majority of parents. Most people today have no idea what these brave men and women fought for, so they care very little. I have seen these thugs entertaining their sorry selves on what I would class as the most important part of our history and have on occasion told them to show some respect but they just laugh in your face. So how about we get the little darlings to clean up the damage, while we shoot at them from some newly dug trenches. It will give them some sort of idea what those named on the moument had to put up with.
Reply ID 30340
quote:Why not tell them why it is important, that the memorial means a lot to some people and that there are people who are genuinely upset by the damage. Perhaps if it were explained to them like this they may respond better.
Originally posted by Tazz
Why so surprised? Sadly respect is not taught in schools or by a majority of parents. Most people today have no idea what these brave men and women fought for, so they care very little. I have seen these thugs entertaining their sorry selves on what I would class as the most important part of our history and have on occasion told them to show some f****** respect but they just laugh in your face. So how about we get the little darlings to clean up the damage, while we shoot at them from some newly dug trenches. It will give them some sort of idea what those named on the moument had to put up with.
Reply ID 30341
As a tutor to 16 - 19 year olds, I know how to speak to these 'people'. I have tried speaking to these particular boys as adults and recieved a torrent of abuse and remarks about 'old farts trying to stop them having some fun'. I'm in my 30's, so I'm not that old and I'm not trying to spoil what they think is fun. So I'm thinking of fighting fire with fire - I'll start having fun on their front gardens, as I know a couple of the 'War Memorial Regulars'. When I'm told where to go by them, I'll dish out my own torrents. If their parents confront me, then I'll put on my teaching head and give them a lecture in how they should have installed respect for other's property and for their elders into their child. People who have not been taught respect will NOT show it to anybody or anything. Trust me on this one - I know from experience
Reply ID 30342
Blimey. Are you really going to go to their gardens?
Reply ID 30343
If that's the only way I can get it through their thick skulls about respect for something that is sacred to other people, then once I find out exactly where they live - yes!
Reply ID 30346
How about some of us turn up to give Tazz some moral support [:D]
Reply ID 30355
If you think it will work.................then perhaps that is the best way to tackle it.
Reply ID 30359
2 words - NATIONAL SERVICE For those who leave school and don't go into further education, employment or training, 2 years in the armed forces would give them a much needed shock to the system
Reply ID 30360
You are the second person to suggest this to me today.
Reply ID 30362
quote:How about a 3rd - Maybe we of the age of respect and teach our kids the same - mime is no way from perfect but I believe his does respect his forfathers, unless he is with him 'mates' If we did think about the implications of a SkatePark would that make things better - OK HSE implications or.............. Death on the road, I know where I think my Son would be safer.
Originally posted by Ewoowar
You are the second person to suggest this to me today.
Reply ID 30364
quote:Good point, however these are the last ones I would want to see in possesion of firearms.
Originally posted by Tazz
2 words - NATIONAL SERVICE For those who leave school and don't go into further education, employment or training, 2 years in the armed forces would give them a much needed shock to the system
Reply ID 30370
quote:EEK! I can hardly believe such attitudes still exist in the modern world! Have you thought about the moral and political implications of such a move, even if it were not for the enormous fiscal cost.
Originally posted by Tazz
2 words - NATIONAL SERVICE For those who leave school and don't go into further education, employment or training, 2 years in the armed forces would give them a much needed shock to the system
Reply ID 30371
Yes, who on earth would want to instill discipline, the merits of teamwork, a sense of belonging and the need for responsibility for one's own actions in this day and age?
Reply ID 30372
quote:That was always up to us as individuals. Unfortunately, as we become less and less "individual" and more state controlled, self-respect, internal pride, honour, become casualties.
Originally posted by JohnSmith
Yes, who on earth would want to instill discipline, the merits of teamwork, a sense of belonging and the need for responsibility for one's own actions in this day and age?
Reply ID 30373
It was never up to us as individuals. When a child is born it has no sense of right or wrong. As it develops it is programmed by its environment. Unfortunately, the state has produced a generation that does not understand responsibility. The re-introduction of National Service would help re-programme this generation.
Reply ID 30374
quote:You miss-understand me. Nowdays we incentivise good behaviour by threat. It's "Don't do that because the camera's will see you and you'll get an ASBO." I was taught right and wrong with comparisons of kindness to unkindness, or selfishness to thoughtful and considerate. Getting caught wasn't ever an an issue. Responsibility cannot be taught by removal of responsibility. A baby has none, it is added as each lesson is learned. As for national service, I would not have forced a child of mine to be involved in the last war (Iraq) and certainly would not have been pleased to have an 18 year old sent home in a bodybag. Certainly Britain's military conduct in the world is no example of right and wrong. We live in a world of excessive state interference where the only reason for not speeding is seen as the risk of being caught and no moral implication is discussed. That has had it's effect on parent's attitudes and that in turn passes to the children.
Originally posted by JohnSmith
It was never up to us as individuals. When a child is born it has no sense of right or wrong. As it develops it is programmed by its environment. Unfortunately, the state has produced a generation that does not understand responsibility. The re-introduction of National Service would help re-programme this generation.
Reply ID 30375
I think we are arguing from the same side. National service doesn't have to equal armed conflict. My father did 2 years national service with the RAF. He never flew a plane or left the country. "Responsibility cannot be taught by removal of responsibility" - very true. And what better way to teach this by getting a group of 16-18 year olds together and actually showing them? There was a TV programme on ITV called Bad Lad's Army which got a group of young offenders together and put them through the a typical national service regime from the 1950s. The vast majority of them came out of it different people. The odd one refused to change but that will always happen. However, it showed that it's never too late and a little bit of hardship doesn't hurt. As for the cost. Well £3k on a bus shelter may well have been saved along with the cost of keeping offenders locked up and/or on state benefits because they don't want to work or are deemed unemployable.
Reply ID 30380
I agree.....national service should be considered. However, it need not be tied to the armed forces. It can be more community focussed.
Reply ID 30382
Just returned from the Remeberance Parade. Yes, there were some very well behaved youngsters taking part, but there was also a small minority who you could clearly see didn't want to be there, judging by there demeanour. If youth groups cannot instill a sense of respect for those who fell for our country - just by getting the to walk without putting their hands in their pockets, talking to their mates whilst walking past the memorial or even ironing their uniform - then there is no hope for the future. I stood by the Castle Gate, where the parade has to do an 'eyes right' towards the poppies, and every organisation except one observed this. I know that when I belonged to this particular group in the distant past, we did the eyes right. Where has the respect gone from your organisation gone, Mr Baden-Powell?
Reply ID 30386
A lot of us came to realise what the war memorial really represents. Many of these soldiers died in a war which was not in their interests and about which they were not well enough informed, or so deliberately miss-informed to be able to form an opinion of their own. Many more simply had no choice. Even now, we teach our chidren a biased and inaccurate version of history, ignoring our part in causing both World Wars. It is not surprising that many reject official ceremony, even if moved by the tradgedy itself.
Reply ID 30387
quote:From where I was standing I was not conscious of any particulary disrespectful behaviour. For my part, having had an enormous lump of concrete through my car window and gear stolen by some gobsh*te scumbag yesterday, the youngsters parading this morning were a welcome sight and a credit to themselves and their organisations.
Originally posted by Tazz
Just returned from the Remeberance Parade. Yes, there were some very well behaved youngsters taking part, but there was also a small minority who you could clearly see didn't want to be there, judging by there demeanour. If youth groups cannot instill a sense of respect for those who fell for our country - just by getting the to walk without putting their hands in their pockets, talking to their mates whilst walking past the memorial or even ironing their uniform - then there is no hope for the future. I stood by the Castle Gate, where the parade has to do an 'eyes right' towards the poppies, and every organisation except one observed this. I know that when I belonged to this particular group in the distant past, we did the eyes right. Where has the respect gone from your organisation gone, Mr Baden-Powell?
Reply ID 30388
I was impressed by the number of young people that were there this morning. For the most part they appeared to be behaving very appropriately, and if a few didn't I wouldn't like to think the others were tarred with the same brush.
Reply ID 30395
The leadership of certain groups should ensure that their members Iron their uniforms, have clean shoes on, and if they are not going to teach them to march, at least make sure that they walk in line and not like a rabble.
Reply ID 30467
quote:I'm not quite sure what your point is here shunt. Remembrance Sunday (with the symbolic use of the poppy) is linked to the phrase "lest we forget". Lest we forget the men and women that died during conflicts in the name of Britain - the ultimate sacrifice - many just obeying orders, and most in the true belief that what they were doing was right and for the good of the country. We also remember those that died as a result of the conflicts who did not ask to be involved but in the main, we are remembering those who went to war to fight to keep us free. It does not matter what we are teaching our children or what those who went to war were told. We are paying our respects to those who died. This is what children need to understand. There is no excuse for the disrespect with which our war memorial is treated. It is our duty to ensure that everyone is informed of the sacrifices that were made - are being made - and to ensure that these are fully understood and due respect is made.
Originally posted by shunt
A lot of us came to realise what the war memorial really represents. Many of these soldiers died in a war which was not in their interests and about which they were not well enough informed, or so deliberately miss-informed to be able to form an opinion of their own. Many more simply had no choice. Even now, we teach our chidren a biased and inaccurate version of history, ignoring our part in causing both World Wars. It is not surprising that many reject official ceremony, even if moved by the tradgedy itself.
Reply ID 30475
I'm not entirely sure what Shunt is on about either. My Grandfather served in the navy in WW1 and my Father served in WW2. Both were very well aware what they were fighting for and both volunteered to fight. In fact my Granddad lied about his age and joined up at 15. Two years later the draft board turned up at his mother's demanding to know why he hadn't joined up. She informed him that he was currently serving on a ship in the N Atlantic. When they tracked him down they docked his pay to boy rates as he had been paid as a man for 2 years! He survived and lived to the ripe old age of 92. My Father served in the DEMS, which even today get no offical acknowledgement for the work they did in protecting merchant ships on board merchant ships, in contravention to the terms of the Geneva convention, but as our convoys were being blown out of the water at an unrelenting rate, Churchill decided to arm them. Yes - at the age of 18 my Father knew what he was doing and for 4 years, why he was doing it. He was wounded, his ships were blown up and I dare say at times he was absolutely terrified. My Dad is still alive and is our Uncle Albert who starts evey sentence with 'during the war....' To say that we as a nation started both conflicts rather flies in the face of what we know to be the truth. For me Remembrance Day is thinking about my Dad as a young kid, fighting for his Country's survival and all things dear to him, it's about my Granddad doing the same and being one of the last survivors off the Phoebe before she sank. It's about all the former Richard Hale pupils who have no known graves, whose names are carved in The Menin Gate in Ypres. It's about visiting WW1 war graves on the 75th anniversary of the Armistice, and in particular, a German War Cemetery and coming across a bunch of flowers on a German soldiers grave that had been left there that day with a card, written in German that said For my Father, My Darling Father. It's about wounded and dying men crying for their Mothers. It's about every Mother's son or daughter who has sacrificed a part of their life or all of it so that we can sit today, tapping out our moans, complaints and criticisms without fear. We should remember the debts we owe to be able to live the way we do - rich, poor, whatever...so for me and many like me it is important, it is significant and we owe it to our kids to teach them why.
Reply ID 30481
For me, as well as remembering the dead, its also about thinking about what might have been and giving silent thanks that I am here at all. In WW1, one grandfather was shot in the shoulder and invalided out. The other was shot through his nose - only to be patched up to go back and fight again where he had part of a calf muscle blown away by shrapnel at the battle of Arras (he was also awarded the military medal for his actions in that battle). Both just ordinary working men but heroes none the less like thousands of others. If those bullets had been a couple of inches either way though...it makes you think.
Reply ID 30483
Quite simply, though older folk may have one perception of the proceedings, for very good reason, younger folks can hardly be expected to feel the same, particularly following recent conduct by Britain on the world stage. Britain was also not without an element of blame in the causes of either the 1st or 2nd world war or indeed in Iraq or the current Israel crisis. Of course the servicemen in all these events were not culpable in the financial and political moves which caused such wars. It is entirely right to mourn our loved ones lost, but the principle for which they died may not be supported by all, or even described to them accurately at the time.
Reply ID 30487
I see where this is going - the political way. But here is a statistic for you all - since 1939, there has only been one year that a British Armed Forces member has not been killed whilst on service
Reply ID 30488
quote:I'm not sure that the politicisation of this issue is either constructive or relevant. I would be disappointed if it had any bearing on future contributions. I believe that Rememberance is about remembering those that have fallen whilst defending the UK or our interests. The wisdom of any conflict they died in neither here nor there. The point is they died defending us and deserve respect. Unfortunately, the definition of "respect" used by some younger people is somewhat different from what you or I might understand. There might also be an issue with the way history is taught in our schools.
Originally posted by shunt
Quite simply, though older folk may have one perception of the proceedings, for very good reason, younger folks can hardly be expected to feel the same, particularly following recent conduct by Britain on the world stage. Britain was also not without an element of blame in the causes of either the 1st or 2nd world war or indeed in Iraq or the current Israel crisis. Of course the servicemen in all these events were not culpable in the financial and political moves which caused such wars. It is entirely right to mourn our loved ones lost, but the principle for which they died may not be supported by all, or even described to them accurately at the time.
Reply ID 30490
World War 1 - 704,800 killed and 2,273,000 wounded World War 2 - 403,000 Military personnel killed Northern Ireland - 1,123 killed Plus more during Iraq, Bosnia, Afghanistan and Korea This is not counting the civilian lives lost. Skateboarders and their ilk should look into there family history and they'll see that their families would have been affected by these events that shaped the world. Our relatives fought and died for what we have now. Who knows, if they'd have stood by and let the Nazi war machine roll right over us, this forum would have been in German
Reply ID 30491
quote:100% agree Steve. Unfortunately the study of WW1 seems to be a relatively modern thing. When I was at school in the 70's it was probably thought of as too modern in the scheme of things and there were still many surviving participants around at the time. Hence it was all Tudors/Elizabethans etc.
Originally posted by Stevequote:I'm not sure that the politicisation of this issue is either constructive or relevant. I would be disappointed if it had any bearing on future contributions. I believe that Rememberance is about remembering those that have fallen whilst defending the UK or our interests. The wisdom of any conflict they died in neither here nor there. The point is they died defending us and deserve respect. Unfortunately, the definition of "respect" used by some younger people is somewhat different from what you or I might understand. There might also be an issue with the way history is taught in our schools.
Originally posted by shunt
Quite simply, though older folk may have one perception of the proceedings, for very good reason, younger folks can hardly be expected to feel the same, particularly following recent conduct by Britain on the world stage. Britain was also not without an element of blame in the causes of either the 1st or 2nd world war or indeed in Iraq or the current Israel crisis. Of course the servicemen in all these events were not culpable in the financial and political moves which caused such wars. It is entirely right to mourn our loved ones lost, but the principle for which they died may not be supported by all, or even described to them accurately at the time.
Reply ID 30500
Puzzled. My post was in no way political.
Reply ID 30503
Not so sure Leo. As a 6th form student during the middle 1960's one of our poets was Wilfred Owen. We were fortunate in having an excellent English teacher who spent the first year of our A levels doing background work on all our texts. A luxury i think that todays students do not get. Myself I cannot imagine what it must be to leave a town, village with all your friends for a foreign land and be the only one to return. Watching BBC news this evening I still don't understand what we are fighting for. I think the veterans that I've met did - and still believe in that ideal.
Reply ID 30515
quote:Your postings are becoming dangerously close to bringing us down the route of discussing the political rights and wrongs of wars and conflicts that this country has entered into over the years and how they began. (You do not have to be young to disagree with war, including going to Iraq, or indeed any form of violence.) Personal opinions of war are of no relevence when asking people to remember those who lost their lives.
Originally posted by shunt
Puzzled. My post was in no way political.
Reply ID 30524
quote:... but should we ask those who are too young to be personally involved, to be part of those ceromonies, or should we complain when they are less than enthusiastic? As the years pass, attendances will naturally fall, assuming we don't do it on the same scale again. Not everybody wishes to make a distinction between a military death and a civilian one or draw attention to the reasons behind that death. It was the political element creeping in through the critism of youth on this forum, for perhaps not sharing the same views, not the rememberance of the dead, which I questioned. War is a political event. Grief for the loss of a loved one is not, or at least it should not be, if it is to retain any meaning or dignity.
Originally posted by 2929paulquote:Your postings are becoming dangerously close to bringing us down the route of discussing the political rights and wrongs of wars and conflicts that this country has entered into over the years and how they began. (You do not have to be young to disagree with war, including going to Iraq, or indeed any form of violence.) Personal opinions of war are of no relevence when asking people to remember those who lost their lives.
Originally posted by shunt
Puzzled. My post was in no way political.
Reply ID 30570
Sorry Shunt but I'm sticking to my guns on this one. You frequently provide the forum with the balanced view, the voice of reason, the riposte from those who are not otherwise represented on this forum, a reason for us to pause and think, to question our possible knee jerk reactions or innocently uninformed opinions. However on this occasion I think you are either deliberately continuing to play devil's advocate with no justifiable reason or you are just missing the point. I did not see a political element creeping into the criticism of youth, although I appreciate where you feel there is a general undercurrent of tension amongst some forum members. We must not let attendances at remembrance parades and ceremonies fall. That colleagues of the original participants are no longer with us does not matter and misses the whole reason for the memorials and ceremonies in the first place. We all need to be aware of what these people died for, why they died for us and how they died. We must show them due respect and they are represented in this town by the Parliament Square Memorial. I will continue to ask people to stop cycling/skateboarding on the memorial, if I see them, or to leave the wreaths alone. When I've done this in the past, I have sometimes been ignored and sometimes had a good response. Of course, I've never asked on a Friday or Saturday night.
Reply ID 30579
I go with that, 2929paul. Just for the record, I also object to criminal damage to public property, am appalled by those who disturb wreaths laid and defend utterly the right to mourn lost family with dignity and respect. I was attempting to balance what was becoming yet another anti-youth thread and questioning whether those who perhaps have no personal involvement should be criticised for not taking part in the ceremonies, when such things may not sit comfortably with their interpretation of history.
Reply ID 30582
I learnt more about WW1 doing First World War poetry for my English Lit 'O' Level in the early 80's than anywhere else. I was lucky also, my teacher did his PhD on that subject.
Reply ID 30584
quote:As an adult Beaver Scout leader I'd like to comment on this. Doing 'eyes right' is something that perhaps people expect and maybe a word with the Scouts beforehand might have helped. But where do we stop? We'll be criticised for not marching properly next! We don't practice this stuff as it's only needed for the this service and St. Georges Day. At the end of the day, those that parade have bothered to turn up. I was in Ware's march and some of the older Explorer Scouts got a little restless behind me but it's a long, and to most of them, alien service. Our Scout leader gives those that turn up preference when places for juicy nights out are up for grabs. We may not be the slickest on the parade but I'm proud to be there. http://www.scouts.org.uk if you'd like to join us! Remember the topic is about Yoofs disrespecting the memorial, not those that turn up and parade in the cold.
Originally posted by Tazz
I stood by the Castle Gate, where the parade has to do an 'eyes right' towards the poppies, and every organisation except one observed this. I know that when I belonged to this particular group in the distant past, we did the eyes right. Where has the respect gone from your organisation gone, Mr Baden-Powell?
Reply ID 30590
interestingly in our scout group we dont march at all. Apparently marching itself is non-PC.
Reply ID 30620
Still trying to find out where the War Memorial Stunt Riders live...... I've got a idea I know where one is, and Mrs Tazz believes he is 18-19 years old - not exactly a child. He has never worked, as 'Mummy' and 'Daddy' support him, he plays with radio-controlled cars during the day and waits for his playmates to finish school. Sounds slightly strange, doesn't it?
Reply ID 30629
quote:codek2, Which Group are you with and what did you do on Rem Sunday?
Originally posted by codek2
interestingly in our scout group we dont march at all. Apparently marching itself is non-PC.
Reply ID 30634
The old fable should apply throughout the whole year. Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori. "It is sweet and honourable to die for one's country" PLEASE STAY OFF THE MONUMENT.
Reply ID 30641
That's a matter of opinion. My friend, you would not tell with such high zest To children ardent for some desperate glory, The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est Pro patria mori