Topic ID 1980
The past couple of evenings, children aged about 12 have been riding round the County Hall car park in Hertford on the mini quad bikes. If a parent of one of these children happens to read this website, please have a word with your child, in the interests of their own safety. These quad bikes seem to go at quite a speed and the boy I saw tonight wasn't wearing any protective clothing or a helmet. The main problem that I could see what that the quad bikes are very low on the ground and were difficult to see from behind the wheel of a car. I know children want/need somewhere to ride their bikes and skateboards, but I fear that it is only a matter of time before a child is injured using the quad bike in the car park, parts of which are unlit, by a driver who simply can't see them.
Reply ID 25804
Is there not security at County Hall who can deal with this?
Reply ID 25809
quote:Surely children should not be riding these motorised vehicles anywhere except WITH PERMISSION on private property? If, God forbid, a serious accident did happen and the child was responsible then what woud the insurance situation be? Yet another example of the "couldn't give a stuff" society I fear
Originally posted by SMT
I know children want/need somewhere to ride their bikes and skateboards, but I fear that it is only a matter of time before a child is injured using the quad bike in the car park, parts of which are unlit, by a driver who simply can't see them.
Reply ID 25819
Err, dare I ask, did you call the police?
Reply ID 25834
I can understand the concern here, but can't help thinking life was so much more fun when I was a child. We used to build our bikes, rather than having the luxury of ready made vehicles, but I don't recall being there being any problems finding a place to use them. The carpark is less dangerous than many locations and not immediately adjacent to housing. Public Liability should be covered by making it officially forbidden, even if not enforced. I learnt how to ride motorbike in the gravel pit at the top of Queen's Road, we'd hurtle down massive hills at 40mph on bits of wood and pram wheels too. Admittedly there was always one of us who had a broken bone from these activities, or from falling out of a tree, but it was fun, part of childhood and so much more alive than "organised" activity.
Reply ID 25837
Have to agree with shunt. Lighten up the kids are just having fun.
Reply ID 25839
We used to ride bikes down the road four a breast but way back then there were not so many cars on the roads and those that were were somewhat slower than todays etc. I know they are having fun but those things can be dangeroues remember Ozzy Osbourne nearlly died on his and so did the chap who used to be in the Young Ones, cant think of his name at the moment. I have also seen them being driven on the raods by adults without any protction so presumably as the have 4 wheels they don't count as a motorbike, so you don't have to wear a crash helmet?
Reply ID 25842
quote:Imagine all the fun they can have with a broken arm! These things are low and fast and you can't see them from a car, especially as part of the fun is to dodge between the cars. I'm not aware if the police have been called, I suspect that would add to the fun and create some kind of Keystone Cops incident with them being chased around the car park. Security is on site, but again I suspect the chase is part of the fun, and they aren't babysitters. They don't have permission, and it is private land. Hopefully council tax won't be wasted on settling some ridiculous civil claim when the kids do come a cropper [;)]
Originally posted by Reg Varny
Have to agree with shunt. Lighten up the kids are just having fun.
Reply ID 25843
Reg, Shunt, what is the problem with someone expressing concern for the safety of the children?
Reply ID 25852
That which doesn't kill us makes us stronger...
Reply ID 25855
quote:Absolutely! That was not my point, simply that there are few places safer for this activity (assuming it will happen somewhere), County Hall being normally unused after hours, having virtually no other traffic and a similarly unused car park which has smooth walls, rather than trees, fences and other maiming protrusions. Surely cars entering the grounds do so at very low speeds and are simply accessing the few properties beyond. The danger with quads is their weight, not the speed, which the latter, in the confines of a car park, is little different from a push bike. As for safety equipment, I suppose to be totally safe, I should wear a helmet, full body armour, leathers and gloves even on my push bike. It would kinda take all the pleasure out of it though.
Originally posted by Ewoowar
Reg, Shunt, what is the problem with someone expressing concern for the safety of the children?
Reply ID 25859
It was Rik Mayall. If mini motorbikes are required to have insurance then quad bikes are too; the same goes for licences.
Reply ID 25873
OK, so where does it end? Licensed push bikes, compulsory third-party insurance for joggers, in case they bump into someone, licenses to fly a kite, kick a football in case a window is broken, a special licence to apply for if you intend to have children and public liability insurance against anything they might do whilst growing up?
Reply ID 25875
I'm with Shunt on this. And I broke plenty of bones when I was a kid. Just hated been wrapped up in cotton wool
Reply ID 25876
We are talking about petrol driven devices that can kill either the person riding it or somebody else (And yes I appreciate that some of the examples provided by shunt can also end up in death if you take an extreme view). SMT is correct to raise a concern. It is not sensible for a 12 year old to be in control of a vehicle that can travel at 40MPH, a vehicle I might add that has hurt/killed many adults across the globe. I think children should enjoy themselves and I am not a killjoy but lets apply a bit of common sense and reason to this situation. Teenagers have a dulled sense of danger as evidenced by recent studies and the recent road safety advertisements, it is up to people like SMT and the parents/adults to protect them from themselves.
Reply ID 25877
quote:Okay, so if it was a motorbike or a MkII Ford escort that would be okay as well would it?
Originally posted by shunt
OK, so where does it end? Licensed push bikes, compulsory third-party insurance for joggers, in case they bump into someone, licenses to fly a kite, kick a football in case a window is broken, a special licence to apply for if you intend to have children and public liability insurance against anything they might do whilst growing up?
Reply ID 25879
quote:It is "powered" that makes the difference in my opinion, that is surely the cut off, anything that has an engine need controlling and is bound to be more dangerous than anything without.
Originally posted by shunt
OK, so where does it end? Licensed push bikes, compulsory third-party insurance for joggers, in case they bump into someone, licenses to fly a kite, kick a football in case a window is broken, a special licence to apply for if you intend to have children and public liability insurance against anything they might do whilst growing up?
Reply ID 25882
MkII escort is bigger and impossible to get to site without using a highway. Bike? Well maybe. I doubt if you'll see many kids on a Hyabusa riding it round a carpark. Yeah, we used to play on bikes. Stripped down mopeds, scooters and small capacity scramblers mainly and we knew that if we were stupid enough to cross a highway on one, we'd get knicked, grounded and have the bike taken away. Powered items are designed to be. They have brakes and controls. A plank of wood with four pram wheels and a bit of rope to steer it with is far more dangerous at 40mph down a hill.
Reply ID 25884
If they are burning them up in County Hall car park they should be "nicked, grounded and have the bikes taken away"
Reply ID 25886
Is the worry here child safety or nuisance?
Reply ID 25887
Both of course
Reply ID 25889
quote:Ok. Nobody has said they are a nuisance so far. So who are they a nuisance to?
Originally posted by Frenchie
Both of course
Reply ID 25892
Shunt, we can all use extreme examples such as a go-kart travelling at 40MPH, but to pick apart your example. 1) Most go-karts weigh significantly less than quad bikes, and are therefore less likely to cause injuries 2) Quad Bikes contain petrol which is highly flammable and explosive 3) A go-kart could only reach that speed in a large part of land with a certain gradient, whereas a quad bike can reach those speeds within a shorter time frame and potentially a smaller and more hostile environment.
Reply ID 25897
quote:This is true to an extent, but a BMX bike accelerates faster in a shorter distance than these small machines, some of which are only capable of 20mph flat out. Neither of the two celebrities used as examples were engulfed in a ball of flame and both were riding heavy high performance machines beyond the budget of children and in an open space. Almost all injuries from motorcycles and quads are impact, not fire and unlike cars, are less likely to injure others. OK if it's childrens safety, not nuisance, let's try tree climbing and bicycling instead of go karting. Should that be banned? Both a patently more unsafe than this activity.
Originally posted by OldCross
Shunt, we can all use extreme examples such as a go-kart travelling at 40MPH, but to pick apart your example. 1) Most go-karts weigh significantly less than quad bikes, and are therefore less likely to cause injuries 2) Quad Bikes contain petrol which is highly flammable and explosive 3) A go-kart could only reach that speed in a large part of land with a certain gradient, whereas a quad bike can reach those speeds within a shorter time frame and potentially a smaller and more hostile environment.
Reply ID 25898
What happens if one starts to show-off and pull donuts, ripping up the grass or drive over a flower bed or collide with the odd car (albeit by accident)that might be left there etc - its not designed for quad bikes ridden by children, its an accident to someone/something waiting to happen. I'm glad they are not playing on a public road but it doesnt make it acceptable to drive withought permission on a private car-park.
Reply ID 25903
quote:Both of the examples given are different. There has been no mention or suggestion that these children are causing damage. We've removed so many places for children to learn and play with our rules. Is the car park "private", or is it a publicly funded amenity going to waste out of hours?
Originally posted by Frenchie
What happens if one starts to show-off and pull donuts, ripping up the grass or drive over a flower bed or collide with the odd car (albeit by accident)that might be left there etc - its not designed for quad bikes ridden by children, its an accident to someone/something waiting to happen. I'm glad they are not playing on a public road but it doesnt make it acceptable to drive withought permission on a private car-park.
Reply ID 25904
Shunt, you used an example and I gave reasons as to why it was wrong, we can all use extreme examples to try and prove a point. I think the downside of children using these devices (injury, paralysis, death to them or others) far outweighs the upside. It should be banned in public and allowed in a controlled environment with safety gear and instructors. Would you let a child ride in a car without a seat belt at any speed? so why would you let them ride a bike at 20MPH with no supervision or safety equipment
Reply ID 25907
I did, my children did and most children do, every time they get on a push bike. We are talking elsewhere about building a skatepark. Could there be a more dangerous sport? Are there going to be instructors there 24hrs to ensure everybody is wearing full armour and never tries a new stunt?
Reply ID 25908
OK - i think we should encourage this then.
Reply ID 25910
[/quote] Both of the examples given are different. There has been no mention or suggestion that these children are causing damage. We've removed so many places for children to learn and play with our rules. Is the car park "private", or is it a publicly funded amenity going to waste out of hours? [/quote] I think you've hit the nail on the proverbial there Shunt... I'm sure when I was young and used to muck around on bikes/quads there was loads of places to go, with no obstructions (i.e. cars) and soft landings. I didn't grow up in the area so don't know any local unused land, although I heard there was a quarry on the Welwyn Rd used by bikes? Also I'm sure i've seen bikes on the bit of land up behind Cecil Rd, not too far from the County Hall... This topic is making me want to go and buy a MotoX bike!!! Oh Dear!! Mental note, must grow up sometime!!!
Reply ID 25912
Bicycling or quad biking? If it's children's safety we are talking about, the former is undoubtably more dangerous. Anybody come up with a way in which they are a nuisance yet?
Reply ID 25913
[quote]Originally posted by shunt
Bicycling or quad biking? If it's children's safety we are talking about, the former is undoubtably more dangerous.
sweeping generalization ?
Reply ID 25916
quote:Add up the hazzards. I can tell you, as an engineer, you can discount fire or speed, one being a negligable risk and the other being broadly similar, if not slower. Then factor in traffic, relative braking performance, tyre width. The only possible greater hazzard is momentum, but with a twelve-year-old that is less than a bicycle with a fifteen year old on it.
Originally posted by Frenchie
[quote]Originally posted by shunt
Bicycling or quad biking? If it's children's safety we are talking about, the former is undoubtably more dangerous. sweeping generalization ?
Reply ID 25918
Erm - How do they get there? Do parents take them to County Hall on a trailer - or do the kids ride them along public roads and pavements from wherever they happen to live? That might well be a nuisance as far as some people are concerned.
Reply ID 25919
If these are £10,000, 1300cc, 130bhp machines then I take it all back, by the way. Ain't nowhere safe for one of those!
Reply ID 25920
quote:I don't know. We used to push our bikes and small quads are lighter. I can't vouch for how these kids do it, but nobody has reported road use in this thread. I would also like to add that I agree with SMT's original point. If you are a parent of one of these kids, do what you can to ensure their safety whilst at play.
Originally posted by Deveraux
Erm - How do they get there? Do parents take them to County Hall on a trailer - or do the kids ride them along public roads and pavements from wherever they happen to live? That might well be a nuisance as far as some people are concerned.
Reply ID 25921
I think youre looking a little too deep into the thread Shunt, we have little info or facts for any deep analysis. As a parent for safety reasons i think it is risky, and as a resident, I would consider it a nuisance. I believe most would agree ! good weekend to all
Reply ID 25922
quote:Indeed and a fair point. I'm a bit of a stickler for not banning everything. You have a good weekend too, Frenchie.
Originally posted by Frenchie
I think youre looking a little too deep into the thread Shunt, we have little info or facts for any deep analysis. As a parent for safety reasons i think it is risky, and as a resident, I would consider it a nuisance. I believe most would agree ! good weekend to all
Reply ID 25925
Maybe banning should be banned? [;)]
Reply ID 25932
I was chatting to these boys the other day. They live at Lea hoe gardens or thereabouts so they do not need any transport to get there.The quad bike they have is a small one and I think goes 20-30 mph max (same speed I travel down port hill on my bike)If you venture over to county hall car parks at the week-end you will find children skateboarding BMXing and generallly having fun. Yes there is security but as long as these children are not causing any damage, security let them carry on .There are also drive -bys bypolice patrols occasionally .So let these kids carry on as if they get pushed out then they will have to travel on the roads
Reply ID 25997
quote:I think it was very clear from my original post that my concern was for CHILD SAFETY. I pointed out in two posts that it was difficult to see the fast moving quad bikes from behind the wheel of a car. I also pointed out that the children are dodging between the cars (so County Hall was not unused at the time) which makes them harder to see. The only nuisance is that you may hit one. Perhaps the parents could tell the children to only use the EMPTY sections of the car park and NOT DODGE BETWEEN CARS. My colleague who has already had a couple of serious knee operations was nearly taken off her feet this week. As I say, use the empty bits is you want but please please be mindful of other people there. Hope that clears up my "reason d'etre" According to the sign at the entrance, although County Hall is a public building and publically funded, there isn't even a public right of way across the site. Apologies for the delay in reply - wasn't able to log on yesterday but see things have continued afoot.
Originally posted by shunt
Is the worry here child safety or nuisance?
Reply ID 26010
Thanks SMT. Your original post was indeed clear in intent. I was responding to the less clear reactions to it.