Topic ID 1726
I see they are now suggesting no right turn from Bengeo Street into Cross Road to try to avoid the rat run, can't see that working it just means they will all come down Tower Street and those of us who live in the area but try not to use the "rat run" wil have even more trouble getting out of Tower Street. Has anyone thought of doing the no right turn with one way road "in" via Cross Road and "out" via Tower Street, that might help. Of course they could always close off Tower Street and Cross Road and extend the rat run to The Avenue and The Drive...........
Reply ID 21247
quote:Agreed - there are other ways in (Tower Street and The Avenue). I also don't see people adhering a no-right-turn during a specified time anyway, as it's impossible to police effectively.
Originally posted by Marilyn
I see they are now suggesting no right turn from Bengeo Street into Cross Road to try to avoid the rat run, can't see that working
quote:Eh? [:)]
Has anyone thought of doing the no right turn with one way road "in" via Cross Road and "out" via Tower Street, that might help
quote:The main problem is the bottleneck through Byde Street, Wellington Street and Nelson Street. Forcing everything down The Avenue wouldn't make any difference to that.
>Of course they could always close off Tower Street and Cross Road >and extend the rat run to The Avenue and The Drive...........
Reply ID 21249
My point exactly it will jut mean they come in from the Avenue instead of Cross Road and it will make no difference to the real bottleneck areas
Reply ID 21250
quote:Coming from Bengeo Street in either direction you would come "in" at Cross Road and to go from Duncombe Road in any direction "out" at Tower Steet, it is just and idea but it would help the two way traffic in both Cross Road and Tower Street which can be difficult with parked cars. If at peak times you could not enter Cross Road from Bengeo Street except from the Port Hill direction it might ease things but I have a feeling they would as I said before just use The Avenue and continue to cause the problems in Byde/ Wellington/Nelson.
Has anyone thought of doing the no right turn with one way road "in" via Cross Road and "out" via Tower Street, that might help
Reply ID 21258
Admitedly, I don't live in this area so don't have to deal with the irritations that this rat run causes, but please don't shoot me down for this post; it is a thought, not an order or fait accompli.[:)] I don't think that directional signs for Peak Hours Only times would work. It would fall into the same situation as the link between Parliament Square and Fore Street: some drivers semm to operate to different rulles of the road than others. The only way that a rat-run can be permanently closed is to block a strategic road and/or create a one-way sytem. This can cause problems for those already living in the area yet the decision has to be made as to whether you would rather an environment safe for your families and property (and better for your property value), if you wish to continue with things as they are or have a solution which doesn't solve the problem in the long run. After having a look at multimap it appears that those above Church Road qualify for using Bengeo Street for their access and those living south Church Road qualify for access through Beane Road/Molewood Road. This means ALL of Church Road and not creating a different rule for houses on opposite sides of the road (it'll be Asterix & the Great Divide all over again...[:)]) By severing the rat-run by way of No-Entry signs and heavy road markings (as opposed to bollards) somewhere between Cross Street & Fanshawe/Farquar Streets the problem should be resolved. I shall now take my place against that wall over there and, yes, I would like a blindfold...[:D]
Reply ID 21265
The only road markings that are really needed are double yellow lines on both sides of the affected roads. Roads are provided for people to pass and re-pass on, not for people to have the inalienable right to park outside their house, obstructing lawful road users. How many people who live on that section of the "rat-run" bought their houses, not knowing of the traffic situation? If I lived on Bengeo Street, and didn't like the fact that traffic drove past,would that give me the right to campaign to have Bengeo Street blocked off? Furthermore, if the parked cars were removed, then there would not be the danger to pedestrians as they would be able to use the pavements to walk on and not have to venture on to the road to negotiate selfish people who park on the pavements.
Reply ID 21266
quote:Buzz, you have to remember that some of these houses were built nearly or maybe 100 years ago when a horse and cart might have been the norm. Are you suggesting that, in this modern age, we shouldn't buy or rent a home that doesn't have adequate on-street parking? The only way to stop this problem is to put 'only for access' signs up along the entry routes to the rat run and have a systematic, continuing campaign by Herts Police to catch people trying to use it. Although on a smaller scale, it has worked in West Street for a long time.
Originally posted by buzz
The only road markings that are really needed are double yellow lines on both sides of the affected roads. Roads are provided for people to pass and re-pass on, not for people to have the inalienable right to park outside their house, obstructing lawful road users. How many people who live on that section of the "rat-run" bought their houses, not knowing of the traffic situation? If I lived on Bengeo Street, and didn't like the fact that traffic drove past,would that give me the right to campaign to have Bengeo Street blocked off? Furthermore, if the parked cars were removed, then there would not be the danger to pedestrians as they would be able to use the pavements to walk on and not have to venture on to the road to negotiate selfish people who park on the pavements.
Reply ID 21267
Some of these houses may have been built 100 years ago, but are you suggesting that the original tenants are still living there? As I stated earlier, people buying these houses must have known of the traffic situation when they bought them, and presumably went ahead knowing of the problem
Reply ID 21271
quote:I totally agree with that, but miracles never happen in parking terms. We all have more wealth and that breeds more cars. The convenience of living in lower Bengeo is the rail link to London from Hertford North. There is no reason to suggest that a couple with 2.4 children and a car can't buy a home there just because cars drive past their house.
Originally posted by buzz
Some of these houses may have been built 100 years ago, but are you suggesting that the original tenants are still living there? As I stated earlier, people buying these houses must have known of the traffic situation when they bought them, and presumably went ahead knowing of the problem
Reply ID 21273
quote:I agree that there is no reason why a couple can't buy a home there because cars drive past their house. My point is that they don't have the right to complain about cars driving past their house, but insist they have the right to park there.
Originally posted by James007quote:I totally agree with that, but miracles never happen in parking terms. We all have more wealth and that breeds more cars. The convenience of living in lower Bengeo is the rail link to London from Hertford North. There is no reason to suggest that a couple with 2.4 children and a car can't buy a home there just because cars drive past their house.
Originally posted by buzz
Some of these houses may have been built 100 years ago, but are you suggesting that the original tenants are still living there? As I stated earlier, people buying these houses must have known of the traffic situation when they bought them, and presumably went ahead knowing of the problem
Reply ID 21277
Oh dear I started something... we do need to remember that most "rat runners" dont live in the area at all and use it to avoid Port Hill / St Andrews Street, I think if it were only locals using the roads there would be less of a problem, it is those coming off the A602 using it as a cut through, at least that is always the inpression I get when I try to get out of Tower Street and they are all coming in off Bengeo Street and hate to have to let you pass.
Reply ID 21282
quote:Which is a crap point, because the cars would still be going past their house regardless of whether they were parked outside or not. In fact, if they weren't parked there, Bengeo would probably be even more dangerous as the cars would be travelling faster.
Originally posted by buzz
[quote]My point is that they don't have the right to complain about cars driving past their house, but insist they have the right to park there.
Reply ID 21284
In order to stop the Bengeo Rat Run all you need to do is close off the road around Millmead Way This would have the added advantage that the Bengeo Residents would have to put up with the bad traffic around Hertford that the rest of us have to contend with [}:)]
Reply ID 21291
When we bought our house on Bengeo Street we accepted that we couldn't park outside our house on the main road. Why can't those in "Lower Bengeo" also accept the same? IMO the congestion on the pavements and the impossibility of getting a pram or wheelchair through the cars parked on the pavement is far worse than the "rat run" issue.
Reply ID 21292
quote:The cars would still be going past their house, but safely, because they would not be having to manouevre around badly parked vehicles whilst trying to avoid people with young children, prams and pushchairs who are forced to walk in the road because the cars are blocking the pavements. With the volume of traffic using those roads, how fast do you suppose they would be going?
Originally posted by Jobyquote:Which is a crap point, because the cars would still be going past their house regardless of whether they were parked outside or not. In fact, if they weren't parked there, Bengeo would probably be even more dangerous as the cars would be travelling faster.
Originally posted by buzz
[quote]My point is that they don't have the right to complain about cars driving past their house, but insist they have the right to park there.
Reply ID 21306
quote:They go pretty fast already, I dread to think what it would be like if they had a clear run. The clear run would also encourage those that currently avoid the area due to the congestion. For the record, I agree that the parking is a problem in Lower Bengeo - I've struggled up and down Byde Street many a time with a pram - but to link the parking with the rat run problem is just incorrect.
Originally posted by buzz
With the volume of traffic using those roads, how fast do you suppose they would be going?
Reply ID 21307
quote:There are fewer houses on Bengeo Street, therefore finding alternative places to park is more viable. There's less option in Lower Bengeo. To suggest, as another post did, that only people without cars should consider buying houses in Lower Bengeo is just unrealistic.
Originally posted by Bengeobabe
When we bought our house on Bengeo Street we accepted that we couldn't park outside our house on the main road. Why can't those in "Lower Bengeo" also accept the same?
Reply ID 21308
To get home from Hertford to Ware, we all have to drive by someone's house one way or the other. You either rat run it, or even if you use the offical route, you drive at 40 past the front doors of people who live on London Road (A414). What would we all do if they complained about the speed people pass their house/or the fact they cant park outside it etc? (I pick on these as I was actually born in one of these houses in 1971!)
Reply ID 21315
quote:Joby, tell me where you live and I will come round and help you find the plot! The parking in lower Bengeo IS the whole problem. What you appear to be advocating is the total ban of any vehicles in roads with houses!
Originally posted by Jobyquote:They go pretty fast already, I dread to think what it would be like if they had a clear run. The clear run would also encourage those that currently avoid the area due to the congestion. For the record, I agree that the parking is a problem in Lower Bengeo - I've struggled up and down Byde Street many a time with a pram - but to link the parking with the rat run problem is just incorrect.
Originally posted by buzz
With the volume of traffic using those roads, how fast do you suppose they would be going?
Reply ID 21323
quote:Er, where exactly did I advocate that? Get your facts straight, especially if you feel the urge to be rude to me again. Does your confidence in holding the parking solely responsible for the rat run stems from years of experience living on one of the affected roads, or from years of cutting through Bengeo every day? Less parked cars = more through traffic at faster speeds. Hardly an improvement on safety. I've never called for a ban on traffic through Bengeo, just a reduction to a level that the narrow roads can safely sustain.
Originally posted by buzz
Joby, tell me where you live and I will come round and help you find the plot! The parking in lower Bengeo IS the whole problem. What you appear to be advocating is the total ban of any vehicles in roads with houses!
Reply ID 21324
quote:Well, for a start, I said that you "appear" to be advocating.........etc. I was not intending to be rude to you, just pointing out salient facts. Just to re-iterate. If there were no cars parked on the relevant roads, or more precisely, pavements, pedestrians, particularly the most vulnerable would not have to venture into the road to negotiate a way around them. That would improve safety about 100 fold. The very nature of the roads means that most vehicles do not travel at above 15 mph. My confidence in holding the parking responsible stems from 30 years as a Police Officer.
Originally posted by Jobyquote:Er, where exactly did I advocate that? Get your facts straight, especially if you feel the urge to be rude to me again. Does your confidence in holding the parking solely responsible for the rat run stems from years of experience living on one of the affected roads, or from years of cutting through Bengeo every day? Less parked cars = more through traffic at faster speeds. Hardly an improvement on safety. I've never called for a ban on traffic through Bengeo, just a reduction to a level that the narrow roads can safely sustain.
Originally posted by buzz
Joby, tell me where you live and I will come round and help you find the plot! The parking in lower Bengeo IS the whole problem. What you appear to be advocating is the total ban of any vehicles in roads with houses!
Reply ID 21327
Buzz, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one [:)] There are serious pedestrian safety issues at the moment caused by parking, I'm not disputing that. Two people hit in the last year or so would back that up (although incidently both of those were on the pavement, not "forced into the road" around a parked car.) However, remove the parked cars and the nature of the threat to pedestrians merely changes rather than recedes - we all still have to cross the road, which would be made significantly less safe with clearer roads and the subsequent increased volume of traffic at greater speeds that would follow. If you *really* think that most vehicles using these roads do not travel above 15mph then you clearly haven't spent the last 30 years policing in the real world.
Reply ID 21328
There seems to be no solution. Joby and Buzz for MPs. Who agrees?
Reply ID 21329
I went for a walk up Nelson Street and Byde Street this afternoon and crossed from one side of the road to the other every few yards. I found very little problem with all this so called traffic. I only saw a dozen moving cars at most and can't see what all the fuss is about. There is far more traffic on Bengeo Street. The biggest problem was getting by parked cars taking up over half the pathway. This problem was worse in Nelson Street.
Reply ID 21330
Has anyone noticed how smoothly the traffic flows through the town when the old cross traffic lights have gone wrong?? Maybe if these lights were to be replaced with a roundabout like there used to be,there would be less traffic jams in the town and therefore no need to cut through bengeo to avoid said traffic jams[:)] Also as a lower bengeo resident I'm aware of the parking problem. Unfortunatly There are only a small handfull of people that have garages or driveways. The rest of us have no other option but to park on the street.
Reply ID 21331
The Rat Run Exists because there is no easy/direct route from North Road to the A10 Northbound The Parking Problem in Lower Bengeo is a different issue, but put the 2 together and you get Chaos. Solutions: Nelson street isn't wide enough for cars to park on both sides. As nearly all of the residents have to park in their own street and parking elswhere isn't an option, the only solution is to widen the road. If all the houses in Nelson Street lost their gardens then the road would be wide enough for parking - Unlikely to happen Beane Road is wide enough to take parked cars and it would be more advantageous to park there. Perhaps it could take overspill from Nelson Street (or is it too far to walk?) You would need a realistic residents parking system to stop commuters hogging the spaces though. The only way to stop the rat run is to either block off Bengeo so it is not possible to drive through, or to introduce a viable and easy alternative route.
Reply ID 21333
quote:Out of town traffic did increase quite significantly through Bengeo when these lights were installed and there removal is something that the Lower Bengeo Residents Association should be campagning to have removed. The trouble is this association was set up by Byde and Nelson Street residents and recent events lead me to believe that many of the major players in it have their eye firmly fixed on a Byde Street blockage which would effectively cut Bengeo in two.
Originally posted by burmilla_turbo
Has anyone noticed how smoothly the traffic flows through the town when the old cross traffic lights have gone wrong?? Maybe if these lights were to be replaced with a roundabout like there used to be,there would be less traffic jams in the town and therefore no need to cut through bengeo to avoid said traffic jams[:)]
Reply ID 21334
quote:I agree with most of what you are saying but quite frankly a Byde Street Blockage is just not on. Whilst this may well benefit a few household it is against the interests of Bengeo residents as a whole as it is a restriction on their freedom of movement. "A viable and easy alternative route" has to be the answer as this would benefit Hertford as a whole. It is not just Bengeo that gets snarled up with traffic it is Hertford in general.
Originally posted by jez_p
The Rat Run Exists because there is no easy/direct route from North Road to the A10 Northbound The Parking Problem in Lower Bengeo is a different issue, but put the 2 together and you get Chaos. Solutions: Nelson street isn't wide enough for cars to park on both sides. As nearly all of the residents have to park in their own street and parking elswhere isn't an option, the only solution is to widen the road. If all the houses in Nelson Street lost their gardens then the road would be wide enough for parking - Unlikely to happen Beane Road is wide enough to take parked cars and it would be more advantageous to park there. Perhaps it could take overspill from Nelson Street (or is it too far to walk?) You would need a realistic residents parking system to stop commuters hogging the spaces though. The only way to stop the rat run is to either block off Bengeo so it is not possible to drive through, or to introduce a viable and easy alternative route.
Reply ID 21338
quote:You asked in a previous post where my confidence in my remarks regarding parked vehicles came from. When I told you, you derided my experience as a police officer. So, can I ask you what background you have to make you so confident in your remarks? Also, you negate my point that traffic speeds are generally no more than 15mph through the affected area. Perhaps you have some data to substantiate your claim?
Originally posted by Joby
Buzz, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one [:)] There are serious pedestrian safety issues at the moment caused by parking, I'm not disputing that. Two people hit in the last year or so would back that up (although incidently both of those were on the pavement, not "forced into the road" around a parked car.) However, remove the parked cars and the nature of the threat to pedestrians merely changes rather than recedes - we all still have to cross the road, which would be made significantly less safe with clearer roads and the subsequent increased volume of traffic at greater speeds that would follow. If you *really* think that most vehicles using these roads do not travel above 15mph then you clearly haven't spent the last 30 years policing in the real world.
Reply ID 21341
quote:Certainly - five years as a resident on Wellington Street and a user of the affected roads pretty much every day for the last seven years. I didn't intend to deride your experience as a police officer. However, I asked you why were we so confident that you were right, and you effectively replied "because I'm a cop", which is bordering on pathetic. If you had described some experience of the specific problem or of similar problems elsewhere, or even intimated as to *why* your experience as a police officer was relevant then fair enough, but you didn't.
Originally posted by buzz
You asked in a previous post where my confidence in my remarks regarding parked vehicles came from. When I told you, you derided my experience as a police officer. So, can I ask you what background you have to make you so confident in your remarks?
quote:No real data, I'm afraid. You'll have to make to with the poor substitute of years of first-hand experience. In particular the speeds on the stretch of Byde Street above the Fashawe/Farquhar junction, down Nelson Street and both ways along Beane Road are well in excess of 15mph - that is a fact.
Also, you negate my point that traffic speeds are generally no more than 15mph through the affected area. Perhaps you have some data to substantiate your claim?
Reply ID 21344
quote:I still stand by my experience as a police officer regarding the problems in lower Bengeo. Stating that I rely on that as "pathetic" is insulting in the extreme. The fact that you fail to recognise what is blatantly obvious to everyone really puts your remarks into context. Your remark that speeds are "well in excess of 15mph" is not "a fact". Unless you have some evidence to support that, it is conjecture.
Originally posted by Jobyquote:Certainly - five years as a resident on Wellington Street and a user of the affected roads pretty much every day for the last seven years. I didn't intend to deride your experience as a police officer. However, I asked you why were we so confident that you were right, and you effectively replied "because I'm a cop", which is bordering on pathetic. If you had described some experience of the specific problem or of similar problems elsewhere, or even intimated as to *why* your experience as a police officer was relevant then fair enough, but you didn't.
Originally posted by buzz
You asked in a previous post where my confidence in my remarks regarding parked vehicles came from. When I told you, you derided my experience as a police officer. So, can I ask you what background you have to make you so confident in your remarks?quote:No real data, I'm afraid. You'll have to make to with the poor substitute of years of first-hand experience. In particular the speeds on the stretch of Byde Street above the Fashawe/Farquhar junction, down Nelson Street and both ways along Beane Road are well in excess of 15mph - that is a fact.
Also, you negate my point that traffic speeds are generally no more than 15mph through the affected area. Perhaps you have some data to substantiate your claim?
Reply ID 21345
Diplomacy is your friend
Reply ID 21346
A certain person here on this forum is of the opinion that people of lower bengeo should not park on the streets thus making the traffic flow easier which would solve the problem. But hang on a minute there are "access only" signs on cross street and beane road so surely non residents should not be coming through anyway?? or is this person not aware of these signs?
Reply ID 21347
quote:You are making certain assumptions here. How do you know that "this person" does not live within the "access only" area.
Originally posted by burmilla_turbo
A certain person here on this forum is of the opinion that people of lower bengeo should not park on the streets thus making the traffic flow easier which would solve the problem. But hang on a minute there are "access only" signs on cross street and beane road so surely non residents should not be coming through anyway?? or is this person not aware of these signs?
Reply ID 21350
quote:So are you saying that it is ok to ignore the access only signs and that anybody should be able to use the roads?
Originally posted by burmilla_turboquote:
Originally posted by buzzquote:You are making certain assumptions here. How do you know that "this person" does not live within the "access only" area.
Originally posted by burmilla_turbo
A certain person here on this forum is of the opinion that people of lower bengeo should not park on the streets thus making the traffic flow easier which would solve the problem. But hang on a minute there are "access only" signs on cross street and beane road so surely non residents should not be coming through anyway?? or is this person not aware of these signs?
Reply ID 21351
Buzz, I suggest we cease. We are clearly not going to agree and the discussion is turning personal, which achieves nothing. [:)]
Reply ID 21352
quote:OK
Originally posted by Joby
Buzz, I suggest we cease. We are clearly not going to agree and the discussion is turning personal, which achieves nothing. [:)]
Reply ID 21353
quote:You are so totally missing the point! People who live within the "access only" area are perfectly entitled to use the roads. As are people visiting friends who live in the area, going to the shops in the Avenue, or for that matter wishing to access the Hertford North Car park.
Originally posted by burmilla_turboquote:
Originally posted by burmilla_turboquote:So are you saying that it is ok to ignore the access only signs and that anybody should be able to use the roads?
Originally posted by buzzquote:You are making certain assumptions here. How do you know that "this person" does not live within the "access only" area.
Originally posted by burmilla_turbo
A certain person here on this forum is of the opinion that people of lower bengeo should not park on the streets thus making the traffic flow easier which would solve the problem. But hang on a minute there are "access only" signs on cross street and beane road so surely non residents should not be coming through anyway?? or is this person not aware of these signs?
Reply ID 21354
burmilla, there are an awful lot of lucky people living in Lower Bengeo at the moment. If the police wanted to, they could ticket and even remove a considerable amount of cars (I'm making a big assumption here but I reckon most of them would be residents of Lower bengeo). If they parked legally, it would make a big change to the way traffic flows through the streets.
Reply ID 21372
As I understand it, there are no NEW ideas being put forward, just a resolve to actually get something done and to have all possible solutions investigated fully. To re-cap: There are currently Access Only entry restrictions into the area west of Bengeo Street, bounded to the south at the southern access the Beane Road and at the north along Sacombe Road where there could be rat-run access to The Wick. By this means, in theory, all access points to Byde Street, Lower Bengeo and the rest of that area of "West" Bengeo are for residents, their friends and relatives etc. and goods and services delivered to residents only. Anyone driving through these signs without a valid reason could be nicked. We all know that that cannot be policed and relies on the good people of this land to obey the law. Which they don't. The residents are continually frustrated by the lack of respect shown by the motoring public in the manner in which they drive around the area and the numbers of vehicles taking advantage of the route. It is dangerous for pedestrians and all road users in the area. Parking: Parking is not on the agenda when it comes to the rat-run and is unrelated in terms of resolving the rat-run issue. Illegally parking on the pavements has nothing to do with vehicles illegally entering into an Access Only zone. A separate discussion is needed as to how best to resolve it. Finally: Some time ago, Port Vale was blocked off half way down to close off a rat-run that had serious safety implications: Mill Mead school is in Port Vale.
Reply ID 21379
quote:Ah! sombody on my wavelength! This is precisely my point. The problem is the said people that drive through the access only zone that have no reason to be there. I have absolutly no problem with residents and thair visitors using the roads.
Originally posted by 2929paul
As I understand it, there are no NEW ideas being put forward, just a resolve to actually get something done and to have all possible solutions investigated fully. To re-cap: There are currently Access Only entry restrictions into the area west of Bengeo Street, bounded to the south at the southern access the Beane Road and at the north along Sacombe Road where there could be rat-run access to The Wick. By this means, in theory, all access points to Byde Street, Lower Bengeo and the rest of that area of "West" Bengeo are for residents, their friends and relatives etc. and goods and services delivered to residents only. Anyone driving through these signs without a valid reason could be nicked. We all know that that cannot be policed and relies on the good people of this land to obey the law. Which they don't. The residents are continually frustrated by the lack of respect shown by the motoring public in the manner in which they drive around the area and the numbers of vehicles taking advantage of the route. It is dangerous for pedestrians and all road users in the area. Parking: Parking is not on the agenda when it comes to the rat-run and is unrelated in terms of resolving the rat-run issue. Illegally parking on the pavements has nothing to do with vehicles illegally entering into an Access Only zone. A separate discussion is needed as to how best to resolve it. Finally: Some time ago, Port Vale was blocked off half way down to close off a rat-run that had serious safety implications: Mill Mead school is in Port Vale.
Reply ID 21380
quote:"parking is not on the agenda" Well, sorry friend, but parking most certainly IS on the agenda. If it were not for the illegally parked vehicles in lower Bengeo, there would be no problem with motorists legitimately accessing roads which they have paid their vehicle excise duty to use.
Originally posted by 2929paul
As I understand it, there are no NEW ideas being put forward, just a resolve to actually get something done and to have all possible solutions investigated fully. To re-cap: There are currently Access Only entry restrictions into the area west of Bengeo Street, bounded to the south at the southern access the Beane Road and at the north along Sacombe Road where there could be rat-run access to The Wick. By this means, in theory, all access points to Byde Street, Lower Bengeo and the rest of that area of "West" Bengeo are for residents, their friends and relatives etc. and goods and services delivered to residents only. Anyone driving through these signs without a valid reason could be nicked. We all know that that cannot be policed and relies on the good people of this land to obey the law. Which they don't. The residents are continually frustrated by the lack of respect shown by the motoring public in the manner in which they drive around the area and the numbers of vehicles taking advantage of the route. It is dangerous for pedestrians and all road users in the area. Parking: Parking is not on the agenda when it comes to the rat-run and is unrelated in terms of resolving the rat-run issue. Illegally parking on the pavements has nothing to do with vehicles illegally entering into an Access Only zone. A separate discussion is needed as to how best to resolve it. Finally: Some time ago, Port Vale was blocked off half way down to close off a rat-run that had serious safety implications: Mill Mead school is in Port Vale.
Reply ID 21390
I think we should all campaign for an eco-friendly lower Bengeo where all cars are banned and the area becomes a des-res for walkers and cyclists.
Reply ID 21391
buzz - you have misunderstood. Parking is not on the rat run agenda. It is a separate issue outside of the rat run. There is no denying that there is a problem with the parking in lower Bengeo. Motorists are not accessing the area legitimately because the Access Only signs are in place. You may think that there should not be Access Only signs and you are entitled to that opinion. It is no doubt shared by a large number of people. If you believe that stopping people parking on the pavements or double parking in lower Bengeo will solve the rat run problem, FRIEND, feel free to make your argument known to the relevant members of the Lower Bengeo Residents Association. James007 has proposed an excellent, if somewhat impractical, solution. If everyone on the planet became more eco-friendly and walked or cycled more, the huge increase in cars seen over the last 10/15 years, which has been the root cause of the increased rat-runners and parking problems in lower Bengeo, would abate, leading to less pollution and a longer, healthier, happier life.
Reply ID 21394
quote:Parking IS part of the problem. Having cars parked on both sides of the road means that the traffic cannot flow at even 20mph, never mind 30mph (the legal speed limit). There are huge bottlenecks because of the parking which cause the big traffic jams through the rat run.
Originally posted by 2929paul
buzz - you have misunderstood. Parking is not on the rat run agenda. It is a separate issue outside of the rat run. There is no denying that there is a problem with the parking in lower Bengeo. Motorists are not accessing the area legitimately because the Access Only signs are in place. You may think that there should not be Access Only signs and you are entitled to that opinion. It is no doubt shared by a large number of people. If you believe that stopping people parking on the pavements or double parking in lower Bengeo will solve the rat run problem, FRIEND, feel free to make your argument known to the relevant members of the Lower Bengeo Residents Association. James007 has proposed an excellent, if somewhat impractical, solution. If everyone on the planet became more eco-friendly and walked or cycled more, the huge increase in cars seen over the last 10/15 years, which has been the root cause of the increased rat-runners and parking problems in lower Bengeo, would abate, leading to less pollution and a longer, healthier, happier life.
Reply ID 21397
I'm reluctant to get involved in this debate, but I'll just stick my head over the parapet to say this. There are two problems here. 1. Rat running - totally unconnected with parking issues other than the fact that poorly parked vehicles obstruct the rat runners. Even if you solve the parking issues, the rat-running problem would remain. For the purposes of this argument, "rat runners" are people using the local roads for purposes other than access (I'm not sure of the boundaries of the access only area). 2. Parking issues - totally unconnected with rat running. Solve the rat-running problem and there would still be parking issues.
Reply ID 21398
Rat run, what rat run? I drove down Bean Road and exited at North Station at 8.45 this morning without having to stop for traffic. This leads me to wonder just how much of the traffic is from out of town. Whilst it would be silly to suggest that none of it is I wonder just how much of it is just locals doing the school run. By locals I mean people living in Hertford not just the access only area. I see no reason why Hertford residents should not be able to legitimately use all of the towns roads.
Reply ID 21408
quote:No, I'm afraid you're wrong! The parking issue is part and parcel of the whole problem. And who termed the issue "rat run".?This is a legitimate highway open to pedestrians and motorists (who have obviously paid their vehicle excise duty)If the residents of the roads involved get their way, where does it end? Does anyone who objects to having vehicles driving past their doors have the right to have them stopped? Will it mean that residents of Bengeo Street can petition to have the road blocked off? How about town centre residents? They surely have an equal right to have traffic banned from Fore Street. It all comes down to the same issue in the end. People do not have the right to park outside their own houses on the road. The road is there for people to travel on, NOT to obstruct by parking.
Originally posted by Steve
I'm reluctant to get involved in this debate, but I'll just stick my head over the parapet to say this. There are two problems here. 1. Rat running - totally unconnected with parking issues other than the fact that poorly parked vehicles obstruct the rat runners. Even if you solve the parking issues, the rat-running problem would remain. For the purposes of this argument, "rat runners" are people using the local roads for purposes other than access (I'm not sure of the boundaries of the access only area). 2. Parking issues - totally unconnected with rat running. Solve the rat-running problem and there would still be parking issues.
Reply ID 21411
[8D] Cor, I go away for a couple of days and it all kicks off on the rat run again! Look, the solution is very simple really; park in the road. Pavements free for pedestrians, traffic gets snarled up, rat runners go through town instead. Ta-da! Titus Groan Founder member of the Pavement Liberation Organisation.
Reply ID 21412
Ok then. Let me try to put forward some more truths: 8.00 to 8.30 is the peak time; school run traffic is a major part of the volume of traffic, of that there can be no doubt; the parking, whilst illegal and inconvenient to all pedestrians, acts as chicanes to slow the traffic; and, like it or not, the current situation is that the area is Access Only. We can continue to debate the rights and wrongs of it, the same as we can debate the rights and wrongs of speed limits on public highways, but it won't change that fact. I have tried not to express an opinion about this (although I do have plenty to say) but tried to explain the facts of the situation. When I said that parking is not on the agenda, I meant that it not on the LBRA rat-run agenda. It is clearly the opinion of some that parking IS part of the problem of the rat run. Perhaps this should be brought to the attention of the highways department and the Lower Bengeo Residents Association.
Reply ID 21413
Question for Buzz: Do you accept the legitimacy of the "Access Only" regulation that applies to this area? I'm not familiar with the exact wording of the regulation but I'm assuming it means that only people living within the "Access Only" area (or their guests) are allowed to use the roads within that area.
Reply ID 21414
FWIW, I find a tremendous irony in the fact that many of the newer Lower Bengeo residents have moved in because it is prime commuter territory, just a few minutes walk from the station. In theory, this means that their primary transport requirements are fulfilled by First Capital Connect and therefore the maximum car requirement would probably be one per household. In practice, I would guess that the wealth generated by working in London as opposed to in the sticks means that two cars are easily affordable and, once acquired, suddenly become a "necessity" rather than a luxury. I would think that there are twice as many cars in the area now as there was 15 years ago. (I have no evidence for that buzz, it just feels that way.) I'm not necessarily judging because I have been guilty of this crime too. Just observing.
Reply ID 21415
quote:Answer for Steve. Yes, I accept the legitimacy of the "Access Only" restriction, although Hertfordshire Constabulary has stated that it is unenforceable. Why is this a question in relation to the topic? As I have already stated, if you live within the "Access Only" area or visit friends there, or have any legitimate reason for being there, it is not an issue
Originally posted by Steve
Question for Buzz: Do you accept the legitimacy of the "Access Only" regulation that applies to this area? I'm not familiar with the exact wording of the regulation but I'm assuming it means that only people living within the "Access Only" area (or their guests) are allowed to use the roads within that area.
Reply ID 21416
quote:One or two of your comments suggested that you thought that anyone who had paid their excise duty should be able to use these roads regardless. Thankyou for clarifying your comments.
Originally posted by buzz
Why is this a question in relation to the topic?
Reply ID 21418
quote:Going off topic, does this mean that if you can get away with it, you are at liberty to break the law e.g. break the speed limit in an area where there are no speed cameras or police patrols? It is unenforceable therefore something that can be ignored.
Originally posted by buzzquote:Answer for Steve. Yes, I accept the legitimacy of the "Access Only" restriction, although Hertfordshire Constabulary has stated that it is unenforceable. Why is this a question in relation to the topic? As I have already stated, if you live within the "Access Only" area or visit friends there, or have any legitimate reason for being there, it is not an issue
Originally posted by Steve
Question for Buzz: Do you accept the legitimacy of the "Access Only" regulation that applies to this area? I'm not familiar with the exact wording of the regulation but I'm assuming it means that only people living within the "Access Only" area (or their guests) are allowed to use the roads within that area.
Reply ID 21421
quote:There has been much talk of cars breaking the speed limit on Byde and Nelson street recently. I have lived in the area for 30 years now and have to say that I have rarely seen cars travelling at speeds that I would regard as above 30mph. I can however understand why people would think this. The narrow roads cluttered with parked vehicles on both sides give the illusion of cars travelling faster than they actually are. This is compounded when the cars are going up hill in a low gear. I would also say that a 30 mph limit in this area is to high. Why is the residents association not pressing of a 20mph limit? This would gain far more local support than say one way systems that are likely to increase traffic speeds or blockades that would benefit a few residents but obstruct freedom of movement for the rest of Bengeo.
Originally posted by 2929paul Going off topic, does this mean that if you can get away with it, you are at liberty to break the law e.g. break the speed limit in an area where there are no speed cameras or police patrols? It is unenforceable therefore something that can be ignored.
Reply ID 21422
quote:How do you interpret my remarks as suggesting you break the law? I have merely stated what is a well known fact, that Hertfordshire Police have said that the "Access Only" restrictions are unenforceable. Where have I said that because of that you are at liberty to flout the law?
Originally posted by 2929paulquote:Going off topic, does this mean that if you can get away with it, you are at liberty to break the law e.g. break the speed limit in an area where there are no speed cameras or police patrols? It is unenforceable therefore something that can be ignored.
Originally posted by buzzquote:Answer for Steve. Yes, I accept the legitimacy of the "Access Only" restriction, although Hertfordshire Constabulary has stated that it is unenforceable. Why is this a question in relation to the topic? As I have already stated, if you live within the "Access Only" area or visit friends there, or have any legitimate reason for being there, it is not an issue
Originally posted by Steve
Question for Buzz: Do you accept the legitimacy of the "Access Only" regulation that applies to this area? I'm not familiar with the exact wording of the regulation but I'm assuming it means that only people living within the "Access Only" area (or their guests) are allowed to use the roads within that area.
Reply ID 21426
quote:
I have obviously misinterpreted this comment as a representation of your opinion that everyone who has paid their vehicle excise duty has a right to use any part of the public highway at any time (a view I believe some other forum members subscribe to) and married it to the "unenforceable" comment and come to the conclusion that you find it acceptable to drive through lower Bengeo without "access". My mistake.
No, I'm afraid you're wrong! The parking issue is part and parcel of the whole problem. And who termed the issue "rat run".?This is a legitimate highway open to pedestrians and motorists (who have obviously paid their vehicle excise duty)If the residents of the roads involved get their way, where does it end? Does anyone who objects to having vehicles driving past their doors have the right to have them stopped? Will it mean that residents of Bengeo Street can petition to have the road blocked off? How about town centre residents? They surely have an equal right to have traffic banned from Fore Street. It all comes down to the same issue in the end. People do not have the right to park outside their own houses on the road. The road is there for people to travel on, NOT to obstruct by parking.
Reply ID 21430
quote:Why??? It seems to be enforceable at West Street.
Originally posted by buzz [ although Hertfordshire Constabulary has stated that it is unenforceable.
Reply ID 21431
Where does the For access only area cover ?
Reply ID 21433
A little more courtesy would be appreciated in this thread. If you would like a member to clarify their views, please ask rather than making accusatory assumptions. Similarly, if you are asked to clarify your remarks, please do not take a defensive and hostile tone.
Reply ID 21442
quote:The reason it is enforceable at West Street is because it is one street. There is an entrance and exit either from the West to the East or vice versa. The situation in Bengeo is completely different. There are numerous access roads, and any number of reasons why people have legitimate access. For a start there are the shops in the Avenue, people have friends who live in the "Access" area. To police it effectively, you would have to have a Police car follow every individual car that entered the area to establish that they were just using it as a cut through. Would you consider that proportionate use of police resources?
Originally posted by Jimboquote:Why??? It seems to be enforceable at West Street.
Originally posted by buzz [ although Hertfordshire Constabulary has stated that it is unenforceable.
Reply ID 21444
quote:Please do not be so confrontational. Jimbo simply asked a question which you have answered very well.
Originally posted by buzz
Would you consider that proportionate use of police resources?
Reply ID 21453
quote:Excuse me! How is my answer "confrontational"?
Originally posted by Adminquote:Please do not be so confrontational. Jimbo simply asked a question which you have answered very well.
Originally posted by buzz
Would you consider that proportionate use of police resources?
Reply ID 21457
quote:Your answer is not confrontational - your question is, coming immediately after your reply. It's almost picking an argument. For someone that has to deal with the public you can be a very discourteous person. You have displayed this across a range of threads you have posted to.
Originally posted by buzz
Excuse me! How is my answer "confrontational"?
Reply ID 21465
quote:My question was "is this a proportionate use of police resources"? How you determine that to be confrontational is beyond me. You state that for "someone who has do deal with the public you can be a very discourteous person" Once again, you are making certain assumptions. Who says I "deal with the public" The only way to get points discussed properly is to sometimes be confrontational, although on this occasion I don't believe I have been. I have never been rude or abusive on this site, nor would I. However if there is to be honest discussion on points relevant to Hertford you cannot expect everyone to agree or be "nicey nicey". You have stated that apart from one or two exceptions, you do not moderate language. However, you do seem to seek to moderate opinions, particularly if they don't agree with yours. I enjoy the discussions on this site, but if I am to be "told off" like a naughty schoolboy because my views don't co-incide with yours, then it looks like we're going to part company
Originally posted by Adminquote:Your answer is not confrontational - your question is, coming immediately after your reply. It's almost picking an argument. For someone that has to deal with the public you can be a very discourteous person. You have displayed this across a range of threads you have posted to.
Originally posted by buzz
Excuse me! How is my answer "confrontational"?
Reply ID 21466
quote:Well No. I was thinking that the police could try to enforce it randomly even once or twice a month. After a couple of months I would hope it should be possible to bring some prosecutions. Word of mouth would soon spread to ratrunners that the access only is being enforced and eventually a reduction in through traffic should follow. I think that this level of police resources is justifiable given the daily aggro the ratrunners seem to be causing.
To police it effectively, you would have to have a Police car follow every individual car that entered the area to establish that they were just using it as a cut through. Would you consider that proportionate use of police resources?
Reply ID 21467
I don't think it's enforcable full-stop. With the shops in The Avenue everyone has the excuse of entering the zone to use them. Also if caught not using the shops, couldn't said person use the excuse of changing their mind about using the shops?
Reply ID 21469
Much as it pains me to do so, I agree with Buzz on the enforcement issue. Anyone stopped and questioned by police would simply reply that they are going to Auntie Olives, or Molewood Garage, or visiting Auntie Doris in Byde Street etc. The police would have no way of disproving their claims.
Reply ID 21470
I has absolutely nothing to do with your views. I have NEVER moderated opinions. It's not what you say but the way you say it. This has been discussed in another of the threads you started on this issue. Frankly I'm growing tired of your challenges to the way I run this board. You are a guest here - please respect that. If you were on a football pitch would you argue with the referee in a similar manner? You are free to post your opinions here, regardless of whether or not I agree with them. Just do it politely and show respect to those that have opinions different from your own. FWIW I assumed that as a police officer you dealt with the public. I don't think this is an unreasonable assumption. If I'm wrong on this then I apologise.
Reply ID 21485
quote:See my post a couple of pages back
Originally posted by spitfire
Where does the For access only area cover ?
Reply ID 21521
It seems to me that any way of solving the "rat run" problem is going to create another problem. Would it not be best to improve traffic flow in the town thus reducing the need to use the rat run roads in order to avoid queing traffic? That would at least reduce some of the cars on the bengeo streets.
Reply ID 21522
quote:Sounds like a very sensible idea to me. And probably the best way of improving traffic flow in Hertford is to by-pass the town. Which leads us to another discussion thread.....
Originally posted by burmilla_turbo
It seems to me that any way of solving the "rat run" problem is going to create another problem. Would it not be best to improve traffic flow in the town thus reducing the need to use the rat run roads in order to avoid queing traffic? That would at least reduce some of the cars on the bengeo streets.
Reply ID 21523
quote:And your solution within Hertford is?? (Drum roll...)
Originally posted by burmilla_turbo
It seems to me that any way of solving the "rat run" problem is going to create another problem. Would it not be best to improve traffic flow in the town thus reducing the need to use the rat run roads in order to avoid queing traffic? That would at least reduce some of the cars on the bengeo streets.
Reply ID 21529
The real problem is the lack of bypass. Thats the true cause. People are only using a rat run to escape the clogged major roads. As a community, its the need for a bypass we need to address, rather than solutions to rat runs and speed cameras.
Reply ID 21536
quote:Remove the trafic lights at old cross and replace with mini roundabout. When the traffic lights are not working which I have seen a couple of times, there is no queing traffic and everything moves much more smoothly.
Originally posted by James007quote:And your solution within Hertford is?? (Drum roll...)
Originally posted by burmilla_turbo
It seems to me that any way of solving the "rat run" problem is going to create another problem. Would it not be best to improve traffic flow in the town thus reducing the need to use the rat run roads in order to avoid queing traffic? That would at least reduce some of the cars on the bengeo streets.
Reply ID 21538
The Access Only area includes the Station Car Park so it is legitimate to cut through from Bengeo Street to the Station Car Park - Go Figure
Reply ID 21970
Just as a thought I went down Port Hill into town this morning at 8.30 and there was NO traffic at all, where it is normally queded up well onto the hill and this I think is why people use the "rat run" makes me wonder again how much of it is school related.
Reply ID 22688
I agree with those who say that residents of the Byde St area were fully aware when their houses were bought. My first house was on Byde St. many, many years ago and I was able to afford it simply because it's price was slightly deflated by the lack of parking and traffic flow past it's door which was even then at a similar level to now. Once bought, to campaign to the council to have the price of my property selfishly increased by denying use of the area to others, would have advantage to me, but it's hardly ethical or for social good. How about if you went out in your car and found the local residents had successfully campaigned to close the 414? The only additional hazzard since my days on Byde Street is the number of people at the top end of the Street who, despite having huge driveways, deliberately park in an unhelpful manner. Plainly those lower in the street have no choice, but these few fat cats do. There has never been an issue of speeding in this area. It's greed guys, but worth a try eh. Time to give up now and concentrate on saving up for a quieter location.
Reply ID 22698
I like living in Hertford and I like living in Lower Bengeo. I don't like the traffic. The suggestion to move elsewhere or that this is a case of increasing property prices is crazy. When I moved here nearly a decade ago the volume of traffic was no where near as bad as in recent years. These roads simply can't accomodate safely the current number of cars who want to simply pass through. Its not a question of selfishly denying anybody but being practical. The situation is only going to get worse unless a solution is found. The only effective solution that will reduce the number of cars passing through the rat run is to shut it off.
Reply ID 22701
quote:Shut it off and you shut off access for residents as well as rat-runners.
Originally posted by roman
I like living in Hertford and I like living in Lower Bengeo. I don't like the traffic. The suggestion to move elsewhere or that this is a case of increasing property prices is crazy. When I moved here nearly a decade ago the volume of traffic was no where near as bad as in recent years. These roads simply can't accomodate safely the current number of cars who want to simply pass through. Its not a question of selfishly denying anybody but being practical. The situation is only going to get worse unless a solution is found. The only effective solution that will reduce the number of cars passing through the rat run is to shut it off.
Reply ID 22702
Are the council going to make a decision on this? I seem to recall that residents had to fill in a questionnaire stating their preferred method of 'solution'.
Reply ID 22703
I agree and it's unfortunate but what is the alternative? A compromise that will never please everybody and won't solve the issue of parking and traffic.
Reply ID 22704
quote:Maybe people don't realise Willow, the Highways Department deal with roads now and have done for a while, not the council. They are based at WGC or Hertford depending on your type of enquiry.
Originally posted by Willow
Are the council going to make a decision on this? I seem to recall that residents had to fill in a questionnaire stating their preferred method of 'solution'.
Reply ID 22706
Useful Link: http://www.hertsdirect.org/roadtrans/hh/info/whatherts/
Reply ID 22710
quote:Why should residents get preferential use of the roads - shut it off for everybody or nobody
Originally posted by 2929paul
Shut it off and you shut off access for residents as well as rat-runners.
Reply ID 22713
quote:Brave idea! Great site by the way.
Originally posted by jez_pquote:Why should residents get preferential use of the roads - shut it off for everybody or nobody
Originally posted by 2929paul
Shut it off and you shut off access for residents as well as rat-runners.
Reply ID 22714
Though the volume of traffic my have increased slightly since my days in Byde Street it is likely it is only likely due to the number of people who now drive children to school and no longer shop on foot. The numbers commuting from the area are likely to be the same since the only new builds have been in lower bengeo itself. The main problem is increased multiple car ownership in an area with no off street parking which now clogs the road. If the route is blocked off, other routes take the traffic. Somebody gets it! The residents of these roads may well regret their protest when, to get to their own front door they have to endure the far worse situation which already exists on most of the roads around them. The Byde Street area's traffic is light by comparison. If blocked at Beane Road, for instance, a resident of Molewood Road could face a 20+ minute trip to get from north road to their own house. More, since all the traffic woud also be on the same road. All this is more pollution, more wasted mileage. Sorry, the only solution is to not make unnessecary jouneys in the car. That responsibility falls to all of us.
Reply ID 22717
quote:I have the situation Shunt. Walk! So much quicker.
Originally posted by shunt
Though the volume of traffic my have increased slightly since my days in Byde Street it is likely it is only likely due to the number of people who now drive children to school and no longer shop on foot. The numbers commuting from the area are likely to be the same since the only new builds have been in lower bengeo itself. The main problem is increased multiple car ownership in an area with no off street parking which now clogs the road. If the route is blocked off, other routes take the traffic. Somebody gets it! The residents of these roads may well regret their protest when, to get to their own front door they have to endure the far worse situation which already exists on most of the roads around them. The Byde Street area's traffic is light by comparison. If blocked at Beane Road, for instance, a resident of Molewood Road could face a 20+ minute trip to get from north road to their own house. More, since all the traffic woud also be on the same road. All this is more pollution, more wasted mileage. Sorry, the only solution is to not make unnessecary jouneys in the car. That responsibility falls to all of us.
Reply ID 22723
Absolutely! Walking is the answer, as my partner does daily. Unfortunately, she often has to do so in the middle of the road, dodging traffic to get round parked cars which block the pavements right up to the corners.
Reply ID 22731
One thing further to remember, that residents of lower bengeo emphasise when putting forward rat run arguments: cross road, byde street, farquhar street, wellington street, nelson street, balfour street, and port vale - all used by rat runners - were designed as residential roads and not for a high volume of through traffic. Granted it was never anticipated that each property would own two motorised carriages. Bengeo Street, Port Hill, Cowbridge, Millbridge, St. Andrews Street, The Wash were all designed to take through traffic. Therefore, most traffic should be directed that way. I too believe that a huge amount of the traffic problems in lower bengeo would be relieved if the parents walked their children to school. This is the subject of another forum discussion, of course.
Reply ID 22855
quote:Sorry have to disagree with this. Open ended roads are there for traffic to move though freely. It is when you mess around and start blocking off roads that more problems develop. Port Vale is a typical example. When that was blocked off all the traffic wanting to cut through had to use Byde Street. We must repel all attempts to block Byde Street. Turning Lower and Upper Bengeo into two giant cul-de-sacs is not the answer to its traffic problems.
Originally posted by 2929paul
One thing further to remember, that residents of lower bengeo emphasise when putting forward rat run arguments: cross road, byde street, farquhar street, wellington street, nelson street, balfour street, and port vale - all used by rat runners - were designed as residential roads and not for a high volume of through traffic. Granted it was never anticipated that each property would own two motorised carriages. Bengeo Street, Port Hill, Cowbridge, Millbridge, St. Andrews Street, The Wash were all designed to take through traffic. Therefore, most traffic should be directed that way.
Reply ID 22890
quote:Totally agree
Originally posted by Reg Varnyquote:Sorry have to disagree with this. Open ended roads are there for traffic to move though freely. It is when you mess around and start blocking off roads that more problems develop. Port Vale is a typical example. When that was blocked off all the traffic wanting to cut through had to use Byde Street. We must repel all attempts to block Byde Street. Turning Lower and Upper Bengeo into two giant cul-de-sacs is not the answer to its traffic problems.
Originally posted by 2929paul
One thing further to remember, that residents of lower bengeo emphasise when putting forward rat run arguments: cross road, byde street, farquhar street, wellington street, nelson street, balfour street, and port vale - all used by rat runners - were designed as residential roads and not for a high volume of through traffic. Granted it was never anticipated that each property would own two motorised carriages. Bengeo Street, Port Hill, Cowbridge, Millbridge, St. Andrews Street, The Wash were all designed to take through traffic. Therefore, most traffic should be directed that way.
Reply ID 22896
If the roads are for through traffic then people shouldn't complain about through traffic using them. If the roads are only for residents then block them off and create a Cul-De-Sac Some people in Bengeo seem to want to have their cake and eat it by having a residents only through road.
Reply ID 22897
Actually I think that if you really want to solve the Bengeo rat run problem, you need to address the root cause - IE the lack of bypass in Hertford!
Reply ID 22914
Hmmm... A "rat run" is a term which usually refers to a significantly longer and more complicated route used to avoid a known delay elsewhere. Since the closure of Port Vale, (which was a major route prior to Port Hill escarpment being scraped flatter by the Victorians and even in my early days in Hertford), what we are talking about here is the shortest, most logical and most direct route between Bengeo Street and the North Station area. Even if it were a "rat run", the fact that drivers choose it would be a clear indication of heavier traffic conditions elsewhere. If you are on a "rat run", rejoice! It means yours are the least congested roads in the area. Closing it off only increases the load for other roads and their residents, causes more pollution, burns more fuel and makes Hertford less attractive to commuters. That attractiveness is why we all paid such huge prices for our houses and presumably hope they will be sold again without loss. However, for shorter jouneys, walking from Bengeo Street to the Station takes twelve minutes and fifteen minutes back and saves £3.50 in parking fees. Makes you puff a bit going up, so you'll save on gym membership too, so car drivers can do their bit to help too. I'm not being hypocritical about the problems as, when I lived at Molewood Road and formerly in Byde Street, I opposed the residents parking scheme as not in the public interest and uninforcible, though I frequently found myself without a space to park. Campaigners were asked at the time whether they were prepared to pay for extra traffic wardens to inforce it. Most said "no", expecting the rest of town to foot the bill. Basically, if you want easy parking outside your house and nobody driving past it, buying a house so close to a station and busy town center seems somewhat lacking in foresight. Both those features will be on your estate agent's details as advantages when you come to sell, as they were when you bought. The reason why Hertford insanely built it's inadequate bypass right through the middle of town (Gascoigne Way) is because of protests about spoiling the country areas around, verses campaining for the road from town dwellers some who, later found it's route passed near or through their property. Doh! Presumably the same countryside protestors would quickly emerge again, despite having successfully campaigned the need for the bypassing of their own villages. "Be careful what you wish for....."
Reply ID 22915
quote:A very good post. My hat is off and in praise of Shunt.
Originally posted by shunt
Hmmm... A "rat run" is a term which usually refers to a significantly longer and more complicated route used to avoid a known delay elsewhere. Since the closure of Port Vale, (which was a major route prior to Port Hill escarpment being scraped flatter by the Victorians and even in my early days in Hertford), what we are talking about here is the shortest, most logical and most direct route between Bengeo Street and the North Station area. Even if it were a "rat run", the fact that drivers choose it would be a clear indication of heavier traffic conditions elsewhere. If you are on a "rat run", rejoice! It means yours are the least congested roads in the area. Closing it off only increases the load for other roads and their residents, causes more pollution, burns more fuel and makes Hertford less attractive to commuters. That attractiveness is why we all paid such huge prices for our houses and presumably hope they will be sold again without loss. However, for shorter jouneys, walking from Bengeo Street to the Station takes twelve minutes and fifteen minutes back and saves £3.50 in parking fees. Makes you puff a bit going up, so you'll save on gym membership too, so car drivers can do their bit to help too. I'm not being hypocritical about the problems as, when I lived at Molewood Road and formerly in Byde Street, I opposed the residents parking scheme as not in the public interest and uninforcible, though I frequently found myself without a space to park. Campaigners were asked at the time whether they were prepared to pay for extra traffic wardens to inforce it. Most said "no", expecting the rest of town to foot the bill. Basically, if you want easy parking outside your house and nobody driving past it, buying a house so close to a station and busy town center seems somewhat lacking in foresight. Both those features will be on your estate agent's details as advantages when you come to sell, as they were when you bought. The reason why Hertford insanely built it's inadequate bypass right through the middle of town (Gascoigne Way) is because of protests about spoiling the country areas around, verses campaining for the road from town dwellers some who, later found it's route passed near or through their property. Doh! Presumably the same countryside protestors would quickly emerge again, despite having successfully campaigned the need for the bypassing of their own villages. "Be careful what you wish for....."
Reply ID 23122
quote:In reference to parking in "Lower Bengeo" - during the day all the roads are reasonably clear, by nine o'clock at night all the roads are packed. Paul
Originally posted by shunt
Hmmm... A "rat run" is a term which usually refers to a significantly longer and more complicated route used to avoid a known delay elsewhere. Since the closure of Port Vale, (which was a major route prior to Port Hill escarpment being scraped flatter by the Victorians and even in my early days in Hertford), what we are talking about here is the shortest, most logical and most direct route between Bengeo Street and the North Station area. Even if it were a "rat run", the fact that drivers choose it would be a clear indication of heavier traffic conditions elsewhere. If you are on a "rat run", rejoice! It means yours are the least congested roads in the area. Closing it off only increases the load for other roads and their residents, causes more pollution, burns more fuel and makes Hertford less attractive to commuters. That attractiveness is why we all paid such huge prices for our houses and presumably hope they will be sold again without loss. However, for shorter jouneys, walking from Bengeo Street to the Station takes twelve minutes and fifteen minutes back and saves £3.50 in parking fees. Makes you puff a bit going up, so you'll save on gym membership too, so car drivers can do their bit to help too. I'm not being hypocritical about the problems as, when I lived at Molewood Road and formerly in Byde Street, I opposed the residents parking scheme as not in the public interest and uninforcible, though I frequently found myself without a space to park. Campaigners were asked at the time whether they were prepared to pay for extra traffic wardens to inforce it. Most said "no", expecting the rest of town to foot the bill. Basically, if you want easy parking outside your house and nobody driving past it, buying a house so close to a station and busy town center seems somewhat lacking in foresight. Both those features will be on your estate agent's details as advantages when you come to sell, as they were when you bought. The reason why Hertford insanely built it's inadequate bypass right through the middle of town (Gascoigne Way) is because of protests about spoiling the country areas around, verses campaining for the road from town dwellers some who, later found it's route passed near or through their property. Doh! Presumably the same countryside protestors would quickly emerge again, despite having successfully campaigned the need for the bypassing of their own villages. "Be careful what you wish for....."
Reply ID 23126
quote:When we bought our house 6 years ago parking was not a major issue like it is now - but then last March they yellow lined it from the corner of Nelson Street all along Port vale & now parking is a nightmare. We do not have a car at the moment but we would like one by winter - but where can we park the blummin thing? [:(]
Originally posted by shunt Basically, if you want easy parking outside your house and nobody driving past it, buying a house so close to a station and busy town center seems somewhat lacking in foresight. Both those features will be on your estate agent's details as advantages when you come to sell, as they were when you bought.
Reply ID 23127
quote:...indicating that increased car ownership by residents has a greater effect than commuter parking. I wonder how many two car households have sufficient road frontage to park them both. I haven't and have to make other arrangements.
Originally posted by Paulquote:In reference to parking in "Lower Bengeo" - during the day all the roads are reasonably clear, by nine o'clock at night all the roads are packed. Paul
Originally posted by shunt
Hmmm... A "rat run" is a term which usually refers to a significantly longer and more complicated route used to avoid a known delay elsewhere. Since the closure of Port Vale, (which was a major route prior to Port Hill escarpment being scraped flatter by the Victorians and even in my early days in Hertford), what we are talking about here is the shortest, most logical and most direct route between Bengeo Street and the North Station area. Even if it were a "rat run", the fact that drivers choose it would be a clear indication of heavier traffic conditions elsewhere. If you are on a "rat run", rejoice! It means yours are the least congested roads in the area. Closing it off only increases the load for other roads and their residents, causes more pollution, burns more fuel and makes Hertford less attractive to commuters. That attractiveness is why we all paid such huge prices for our houses and presumably hope they will be sold again without loss. However, for shorter jouneys, walking from Bengeo Street to the Station takes twelve minutes and fifteen minutes back and saves £3.50 in parking fees. Makes you puff a bit going up, so you'll save on gym membership too, so car drivers can do their bit to help too. I'm not being hypocritical about the problems as, when I lived at Molewood Road and formerly in Byde Street, I opposed the residents parking scheme as not in the public interest and uninforcible, though I frequently found myself without a space to park. Campaigners were asked at the time whether they were prepared to pay for extra traffic wardens to inforce it. Most said "no", expecting the rest of town to foot the bill. Basically, if you want easy parking outside your house and nobody driving past it, buying a house so close to a station and busy town center seems somewhat lacking in foresight. Both those features will be on your estate agent's details as advantages when you come to sell, as they were when you bought. The reason why Hertford insanely built it's inadequate bypass right through the middle of town (Gascoigne Way) is because of protests about spoiling the country areas around, verses campaining for the road from town dwellers some who, later found it's route passed near or through their property. Doh! Presumably the same countryside protestors would quickly emerge again, despite having successfully campaigned the need for the bypassing of their own villages. "Be careful what you wish for....."
Reply ID 23131
quote:This is interesting. parking was a major issue 25 years ago when I lived there. If it has got better and then harder again, maybe changes to other roads are creating problems, rather than solving them. I refer to my comments on taking care over what is campaigned for. A council can be pushed into making a bad decision. I'm sure the residents of many blocked off, yellow lined roads enjoy them, but there is always a cost to others.
Originally posted by Willowquote:When we bought our house 6 years ago parking was not a major issue like it is now - but then last March they yellow lined it from the corner of Nelson Street all along Port vale & now parking is a nightmare. We do not have a car at the moment but we would like one by winter - but where can we park the blummin thing? [:(]
Originally posted by shunt Basically, if you want easy parking outside your house and nobody driving past it, buying a house so close to a station and busy town center seems somewhat lacking in foresight. Both those features will be on your estate agent's details as advantages when you come to sell, as they were when you bought.
Reply ID 23143
The key to the rat run is Beane Road. This was not built until 1920, or thereabouts (someone can check by looking at the brass plate on the bridge) and was put in only due to the building of the new North railway station. This unwittingly opened up the potential for a rat run some 70 years later. The Victorians had built lower bengeo as a residential area between the town and the village of bengeo, much of the housing (I believe) being owned by McMullens and lived in by their workers as tenants. Without Beane Road, there was no easy access to the station from the north of town. Without Beane Road, there is no rat run. All towns evolve over a period of time to adapt to new social pressures and changes. I would hate to see lower bengeo closed off in any way, thus restricting access for residents and for through traffic. I think everyone just has to accept the increased traffic flow and trust that in the long term, there will be a bypass to cope with the additional traffic that is on its way to the 4th terminal at Stansted.
Reply ID 27732
Bengeo Street was closed today for resurfacing and traffic sent down Byde Street. Just another reason why Byde Street should not be shut off to through traffic.
Reply ID 27767
quote:The voice of sanity. The lack of bypass is leading to the majority of the traffic bottlenecks around the whole town, not just Bengeo.
Originally posted by jez_p
Actually I think that if you really want to solve the Bengeo rat run problem, you need to address the root cause - IE the lack of bypass in Hertford!
Reply ID 27777
Or could too many uneccessary journeys being made also be a contributory cause?
Reply ID 27856
quote:Probably all those people making unnecessary journeys to work causing the problem.
Originally posted by Andrew
Or could too many uneccessary journeys being made also be a contributory cause?
Reply ID 27924
quote:I didn't suggest such journeys were uneccessary, just that many drivers having a car to hand will use it for short, local journeys (e.g. to local shops, schools etc) that could easily be done on foot.
Originally posted by Reg Varnyquote:Probably all those people making unnecessary journeys to work causing the problem.
Originally posted by Andrew
Or could too many uneccessary journeys being made also be a contributory cause?
Reply ID 27935
quote:Since any bypass would be the A414, there would be no difference to traffic other than on Gascoigne Way and roads which are used as an alternative to it. None of Bengeo falls into this category.
Originally posted by Dudequote:The voice of sanity. The lack of bypass is leading to the majority of the traffic bottlenecks around the whole town, not just Bengeo.
Originally posted by jez_p
Actually I think that if you really want to solve the Bengeo rat run problem, you need to address the root cause - IE the lack of bypass in Hertford!
Reply ID 27936
quote:I'm not so sure - many drivers seem to use Bengeo to travel from A10 to the A414 and vice versa, presumably to avoid busy areas like Rush Green and Bluecoats. If a bypass were to provide a clear run along the A10/A414 route, I'm sure more drivers would choose that route rather than the often frustrating journey down Byde Street.
Originally posted by shunt
Since any bypass would be the A414, there would be no difference to traffic other than on Gascoigne Way and roads which are used as an alternative to it. None of Bengeo falls into this category.
Reply ID 27955
quote:I think you are right, judging by the amount of cars that come down Bengeo Street, into Tower Street, Duncombe Road then down Byde Street I am sure they come off the A10 to head towrads Welwyn etc
Originally posted by Jobyquote:I'm not so sure - many drivers seem to use Bengeo to travel from A10 to the A414 and vice versa, presumably to avoid busy areas like Rush Green and Bluecoats. If a bypass were to provide a clear run along the A10/A414 route, I'm sure more drivers would choose that route rather than the often frustrating journey down Byde Street.
Originally posted by shunt
Since any bypass would be the A414, there would be no difference to traffic other than on Gascoigne Way and roads which are used as an alternative to it. None of Bengeo falls into this category.
Reply ID 27961
Surely it's quicker to go on to the roundabout and turn left through Waterford, or for Welwyn, through Datchworth and left at Woolmer Green? No, I reckon most are from Bengeo or passing through to destinations in the Hertford area, including schools. A lot of the of the queue at Beane Road turns left towards Hertford. If they were cutting through to Welwyn or even Hatfield, they'd turn right. Of course Station drop-offs account for a lot too.
Reply ID 27964
But if you come up from ware you will often find the line of cars strats well past roundabout by the School some a lot must come from the Ware/ Chapmore End/Tonwell direction
Reply ID 27986
quote:Agree with a lot of what you say on here shunt but on this occasion you are wrong. My business is based in WGC and I have several customers that cut through Bengeo rather than use the A414. They only use the 414/Gascoigne Way during school holidays. You are wrong about the Beane Road queue as well. I have to sit in it every morning and the vast majority of traffic turns right. A lot of the time now the Beane Road queue extends all the way up Welwyn Hill and past the school thanks to Herts Highways "road improvements" (their words not mine) a year or so back. Thanks a lot Herts Highways you have added about 8 hours travelling time on to my journey to work in the past year. [:(!]
Originally posted by shunt
Surely it's quicker to go on to the roundabout and turn left through Waterford, or for Welwyn, through Datchworth and left at Woolmer Green? No, I reckon most are from Bengeo or passing through to destinations in the Hertford area, including schools. A lot of the of the queue at Beane Road turns left towards Hertford. If they were cutting through to Welwyn or even Hatfield, they'd turn right. Of course Station drop-offs account for a lot too.
Reply ID 28224
Just received the latest LBRA newsletter - it appears the residents' association has now secured a commitment from highways to conduct a full feasibility study on traffic calming measures. The letter states that "by the end of the year we will have a clear idea of what can be done to reduce traffic volumes on our roads" and that "budgets have been set apart in the Herts highways department to implement measures next year".
Reply ID 28246
quote:I'm sure you are right on this one, but though it makes sense for someone travelling from Bengeo or surrounding areas to use Byde Street/Welwyn Hill to access WGC/Hatfield and the majority do, it's a long and complicated way round for a Ware or Cambridge resident when there are so much more direct ways to avoid Gascoigne Way and get to Welwyn via A602 Harmer or Woolmer Grn. I still reckon the queues you speak of are mainly Hertford/Bengeo residents and the smaller quantity turning left at Beane Road are mainly from further afield. The queue on Bengeo Street, being a combination of both, would be little effected by a bypass and remain the "best route" for many. Indeed, by providing a bypass elsewhere, it may become so for drivers who avoid it now. Traffic tends to act like water in a river delta, spreading into all the tributaries of a town to the capacity of each road and no more. Increase the capacity, traffic increases to fill it within a very short time.
Originally posted by Reg Varnyquote:Agree with a lot of what you say on here shunt but on this occasion you are wrong. My business is based in WGC and I have several customers that cut through Bengeo rather than use the A414. They only use the 414/Gascoigne Way during school holidays. You are wrong about the Beane Road queue as well. I have to sit in it every morning and the vast majority of traffic turns right. A lot of the time now the Beane Road queue extends all the way up Welwyn Hill and past the school thanks to Herts Highways "road improvements" (their words not mine) a year or so back. Thanks a lot Herts Highways you have added about 8 hours travelling time on to my journey to work in the past year. [:(!]
Originally posted by shunt
Surely it's quicker to go on to the roundabout and turn left through Waterford, or for Welwyn, through Datchworth and left at Woolmer Green? No, I reckon most are from Bengeo or passing through to destinations in the Hertford area, including schools. A lot of the of the queue at Beane Road turns left towards Hertford. If they were cutting through to Welwyn or even Hatfield, they'd turn right. Of course Station drop-offs account for a lot too.
Reply ID 28309
I had to push a buggy up there at the weekend and I found the residents parking all over the pavements an absolute discrace. If the council and police properly enforced the parking regulations from the start, then I don't think the roads would be half as bad.