Topic ID 1036
Yesterday's announcement regarding the proposed ban on smoking in pubs got me thinking how it might affect pubs in Hertford, especially due to the exemption from the ban of pubs that don't serve food... Is it likely that occasional servers of food such as the Millstream might be encouraged to stop serving food altogether to avoid the ban? As the Salisbury Arms certainly won't stop serving food, who will claim the "smokiest town centre bar" crown? Which pubs, if any, are you more likely to visit once they are non-smoking? Assuming they don't stop food, I look forward to spending more time in the OXT - sellers of one of my favourite beers (TT's Landlord) but often just too foggy, especially in winter. And finally, do spicy pickled eggs and pork scratchings count as food?
Reply ID 11544
The whole thing is a complete farce in my opinion. Your last point is an entirely valid and quite important question.
Reply ID 11545
If they ban smoking in pubs, the only food you will get in the Millstream will be nuts and crisps. Im a non smoker and I will still go there. Personal choice should be the key here. Nanny State!
Reply ID 11552
If you were a non-smoker and the only employment available to you was in a pub (personal experience in the 80s) you would be happy about this law. Normally I am against the Nanny State and indeed this law seems very fuzzy.
quote:
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
If they ban smoking in pubs, the only food you will get in the Millstream will be nuts and crisps. Im a non smoker and I will still go there. Personal choice should be the key here. Nanny State!
Reply ID 11554
What hasn't received as much publicity with respect to the proposed law, is that in _all_ pubs smoking in the vicinity of the bar (I think I saw one metre mentioned in the past) will be banned to protect the bar workers. At least we will, once the law gets passed, be able to bannish those smokers who hog the bar to elsewhere in the pub. (Mind you, currently in some Hertford pubs the bar workers often come the customer side of the bar and light up for a "fag break" :-)) Also, what happens if a pub serves food in the lunch break but not in the evening (which the majority of Hertford pubs do at present)?
Reply ID 11557
Crisps and nuts are food. They are solid and you have to chew them therefore food. Nutritional value dubious though. I'm a non-smoker and i think it's an idiotic waste of time and money. I hate people who walk down the street smoking. Lets ban that next.
Reply ID 11561
CONTROL CONTROL CONTROL.......When i was in Irland pubs were almost empty every were because of the smoking ban,we were told that most people were staying in to drink.Why not have smoking areas with extraction,i do smoke and no one is going to tell me i cant,theres no cure for cancer!
Reply ID 11577
I just wish that there were a few more pubs in Hertford that were smoke free. There's hardly any places that are worth visiting where you don't come out stinking, and most of those you have to stand in a smoking part of the pub to get served. Where they should really ban it though is railway stations. You can't get away from it on those.
Reply ID 11579
I know people who rent their homes and who are not permitted to smoke in them. They manage to go outside to smoke. Why is this not possible in pubs?
Reply ID 11580
Certain pubs in Hertford would be signing their own death warrant if they implemented that idea. Mind you there would be plenty of space at the bar in the Millstream !!
Reply ID 11581
having spent the last 8 months pregnant, why should i not be able to go in a pub just because other people have the right to smoke? surely i have the right not to breathe in their fumes?
Reply ID 11582
You do...it's called find another pub. The government fiddles while the country burns. I cannot believe they are wasting time and money on this.
Reply ID 11584
You should'nt be in a pub pregnant anyway. I tied my missus to the stove when she was, she only escaped last month! But seriously, why should people not be able to smoke just because a pregant women wants to go into a pub? Smoking maybe classed as anti social, but it not illegal yet. Publicans should reserve the right to have smoking or non smoking pubs. Its all swings and roundabouts. And I am a non smoker. [:o)]
Reply ID 11586
best solution - ban smoking altogether. Disgusting.
Reply ID 11587
quote:Its a point skanky but if there was a market you would have thought that some entrepreneur, somewhere, would have opened one. A lot of the ones elsewhere in the country that have tried this route have had to revert to smoking for business reasons (& Wetherspoons are being a bit coy about the success of their smoke-free policy). The question is do many non-smokers stay at home because they don't want to go into a smoky pub, and many (not the Millstream agreed....!) do have reasonable extractors, or are they naturally non-pub goers and won't go near the places even when the legislation kicks in?? Answers on a postcard..... What annoys me is the probability that some pubs with good food (notably the W Horse) will stop catering... I think this may drive me to take up the habit just to spite Blair & his team of Nannies (& yes, CP IS non-smoking, ex-card carrying, Labour..)
Originally posted by skanky
I just wish that there were a few more pubs in Hertford that were smoke free. There's hardly any places that are worth visiting where you don't come out stinking, and most of those you have to stand in a smoking part of the pub to get served.
Reply ID 11588
quote:Find another pub? So there's a non smoking oub in Hertford is there?
Originally posted by carlos fandango
You do...it's called find another pub. The government fiddles while the country burns. I cannot believe they are wasting time and money on this.
Reply ID 11589
No smoking up stairs at the white horse.
Reply ID 11591
quote:My point is that i have had to forego numerous social outings to the pub with friends (am quite happy to pay stupid prices for non-alcoholic drinks) because there are no such thing as non-smoking pubs. I haven't been to the pub in the last 8 months because of this. Why should I have to give up going to the pub just so people's civil rights are not infringed?
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
You should'nt be in a pub pregnant anyway. I tied my missus to the stove when she was, she only escaped last month! But seriously, why should people not be able to smoke just because a pregant women wants to go into a pub? Smoking maybe classed as anti social, but it not illegal yet. Publicans should reserve the right to have smoking or non smoking pubs. Its all swings and roundabouts. And I am a non smoker. [:o)]
Reply ID 11593
Smoking began in a period of history when the dangers were not known and has become firmly entrenched in (some) humans behaviour. The only reason we have a problem removing smoking and all the problems it brings from society is because it has become part of a way of life for many people. Imagine a world where smoking was non-existant and no one had never smoked. The whole idea of sticking rolled up lighted weed in your mouth, setting fire to it and inhaling the smoke would seem like madness. I suggest that if smoking was only discovered tomorrow the government would ban it before it spread as a habit.
Reply ID 11594
quote:Well, that's why I never go to the Millstream (but will walk past it to go to less smokey pubs). There's one just opened up in Stevenage and it does a reasonable trade. However, the normal market influences tend to get a tad distorted when people's established addictions play a part. Also, as a number of my friends smoke, I have little choice but to go to those pubs, as their addictions will always have a higher priority than the fact that our clothes and hair will stink, etc. etc. It does mean that I have to leave earlier than I wish sometimes. The White Horse has a (virtually sealed) non-smoking section so is one of the pubs that I go to most. What I find most amusing is that all the arguments for allowing smoking in public places are would also apply for much anti-social behaviour that is often complained about ( as well as things like urination, defecation or masturbation in public). Depending on which side of the line drawn you're on determines whether it's anti-social behaviour being banned or a nanny state. And talk of starting just because there might be a law banning it is quite amusing seeing as in order to spite one smug, exploitative rich git, you'll be making yourself stink and unwell to pay money to a bunch of other exploitative, rich smug gits who think you're "stupid" to smoke (that's the executives of the tobacco companies, at least one of whom has gone on record saying that smokers are stupid). But that's your choice, I guess.[:)]
Originally posted by Capitalist pigletquote:Its a point skanky but if there was a market you would have thought that some entrepreneur, somewhere, would have opened one. A lot of the ones elsewhere in the country that have tried this route have had to revert to smoking for business reasons (& Wetherspoons are being a bit coy about the success of their smoke-free policy). The question is do many non-smokers stay at home because they don't want to go into a smoky pub, and many (not the Millstream agreed....!) do have reasonable extractors, or are they naturally non-pub goers and won't go near the places even when the legislation kicks in?? Answers on a postcard..... What annoys me is the probability that some pubs with good food (notably the W Horse) will stop catering... I think this may drive me to take up the habit just to spite Blair & his team of Nannies (& yes, CP IS non-smoking, ex-card carrying, Labour..)
Originally posted by skanky
I just wish that there were a few more pubs in Hertford that were smoke free. There's hardly any places that are worth visiting where you don't come out stinking, and most of those you have to stand in a smoking part of the pub to get served.
Reply ID 11595
Excellent, Skanky! I was going to make a reference to "defecation or masturbation in public" and was going to add spitting.
Reply ID 11597
quote:Sorry, my post and this bit especially was supposed to have a few smilies as it was a bit more light-hearted than it came across. I don't want any of my mates who may read this thinking I have a big problem with them smoking - it's just nice to go to smoke-free places. The perils of posting with a screaming baby on your lap. [B)] [;)]
However, the normal market influences tend to get a tad distorted when people's established addictions play a part. Also, as a number of my friends smoke, I have little choice but to go to those pubs, as their addictions will always have a higher priority than the fact that our clothes and hair will stink, etc. etc. It does mean that I have to leave earlier than I wish sometimes.
Reply ID 11601
I can see problems occuring with too many people standing outside pubs with their drinks having a smoke. The Other unpopular aspect will be the pubs that get round the ban, by not serving food, will upset regulars who have their normal seat at the bar! It will be interesting to see which way Landlords go, whether to ban smoking or give in to regulars demands to be allowed to smoke and stop serving food, a difficult decision in some cases i suspect.
Reply ID 11602
The Government is at fault - the solution is to ban the sale/supply of tobacco at source. But they are too greedy for the tax.
Reply ID 11605
If they ban smoking the Government will only find the tax some other way. All non smokers will end up paying more tax elsewhere. Devils and Deep Blue Seas spring to mind.
Reply ID 11608
quote:Not convinced that is the way forward at all, Nora - that really is nanny state (whereas protecting people from passive smoking, a known and proven killer, isn't.) People should have every right to drug themselves in whatever way they see fit - I have no problem with that whatsoever - but protection should be afforded to those who choose not to.
Originally posted by nora batty
The Government is at fault - the solution is to ban the sale/supply of tobacco at source. But they are too greedy for the tax.
Reply ID 11609
what is the non-smoking place in Stevenage?
Reply ID 11610
quote:2 Dry in the Old Town (used to be the Two of Diamonds).
Originally posted by smileyoriley
what is the non-smoking place in Stevenage?
Reply ID 11611
quote:Perhaps everybody should have the right not to wear a seat belt. That law is in place solely to protect the person who decides whether or not to wear it. I remember the introduction of that law and the outrage and defiance of some people. Now there are very people who do not wear a seat belt. The same would happen if you banned smoking. Outrage at first (albeit on a much greater scale than the enforced wearing of seat belts). Then eventually it would become understood.
Originally posted by Jobyquote:Not convinced that is the way forward at all, Nora - that really is nanny state (whereas protecting people from passive smoking, a known and proven killer, isn't.) People should have every right to drug themselves in whatever way they see fit - I have no problem with that whatsoever - but protection should be afforded to those who choose not to.
Originally posted by nora batty
The Government is at fault - the solution is to ban the sale/supply of tobacco at source. But they are too greedy for the tax.
Reply ID 11613
it is also there to protect other motorists from that person flying through the windscreen and killing the other motorist or people in the backseat killing the person in the front seat [:)][;)]
Reply ID 11614
quote:You should have put a smiley on that! I can't imagine many, if any, people have been killed by being hit by a motorist flying through the air after being catapulted from the vehicle in a crash. Front seat belts exist to protect the wearer only. The Department for Transport estimate that in 2001 2278 lives were saved because seat belts were worn. Of this only an estimated 8-15 were those sitting in the front of a car hit by a rear passenger. Anyway. This is going off topic. We'll be told off soon.
Originally posted by smileyoriley
it is also there to protect other motorists from that person flying through the windscreen and killing the other motorist or people in the backseat killing the person in the front seat
Reply ID 11615
My partner works in the press and my neighbour is a paramedic and have both seen first hand the damage an un-belted human can do to others [:(][V]
Reply ID 11616
quote:I believe that the White Horse made a virtue out of necessity with respect to no smoking upstairs. With limited acess/egress I understand that, due to fire regulations, they had to ban smoking in order to open those rooms to the public. If I'm mistaken, I'm sure someone will soon correct me. Also, I wouldn't mind so much if smokers actually smoked. Most of them seem to be tobacco burners rather than smokers, often leaving the fag smouldering in an ash tray.
Originally posted by del
No smoking up stairs at the white horse.
Reply ID 11619
After the Kings Cross fire there was a pub made non-smoking by Liverpool Street Station (the Lord Aberconway) as it joined the entrance to the Underground at the station. The Health and Safety Gestapo who did this managed to destroy the custom of a once thriving pub as customers went elsewhere. People only returned again when the restriction was cancelled.
Reply ID 11621
The current situation allows no choice for those who wish to have a drink in a smoke free environment. Smokers can smoke in any pub. It is their domain. Non-smokers who want to go to a pub can choose to sit in a smoke filled environment. However those who want to go to a pub but also do not wish to be subjected to smoke have no choice at all. So if the argument is about liberty and freedom of choice well it is heavily biased in favour of smokers. Ironically the people wo are most affected are those who are not inflicting anything upon anyone.
Reply ID 11626
I fear that the issue here is about demand. I don’t think either smoking only or non smoking pubs would create sufficient custom to be viable. Perhaps smokers/non smokers are dependant upon one another if we wish to keep the smaller pubs in particular open? Should we not be able to influence Breweries/Landlords to at least install ventilation systems that work efficiently? Incidentally when smoking is banned at the bar it will be interesting to see what happens to the “bar hanger.” Perhaps some entrepreneurial landlord will install “false” bars, without bar staff and service obviously, for people to prop up? Quite like this idea personally, and could start a whole new innovation in pub design.
Reply ID 11627
quote:Im sorry, are you not allowed to prop the bar up if you do not smoke then?????? Thats where I must be going wrong. 20 Benson and Hedges please my good man!
Originally posted by Pelham 123
Incidentally when smoking is banned at the bar it will be interesting to see what happens to the “bar hanger.” Perhaps some entrepreneurial landlord will install “false” bars, without bar staff and service obviously, for people to prop up? Quite like this idea personally, and could start a whole new innovation in pub design.
Reply ID 11628
Im sorry, are you not allowed to prop the bar up if you do not smoke then?????? Thats where I must be going wrong. 20 Benson and Hedges please my good man! My dear Victor in my albeit limited experience your not "going wrong" at all, I for one have seen you propping up the bar in a number of Hertford's better establishments! What with all that smoke your probably on 20 a day anyway [:)]
Reply ID 11631
Well they say being in london is the equivalent of 7 a day...what with the A414 car park it can't be much better in Hertford.
Reply ID 11640
quote:Igzackly. So ban supply and sale of tobacco. How can you call it "nanny state" Joby? Smoking would still be allowed - it will just be much harder to get tobacco and a pain in the a**se to prove that you got it legally. The only legal way to obtain it would be to import it for your own use. By my reckoning, this would mean 1) A lot less people smoking - especially children/teenagers where the habit often starts 2) The state wouldn't have to pay to police a ban 3) The pubs wouldn't have to decide if they are smoking or non-smoking, because there wouldn't be enough smokers to bother about. This is "Freedom from smoke" versus "Freedom to smoke". I agree that people should be entitled to fill themselves with whatever their choice of drug, but not at the expense of such a large majority - the physical and literal cost is just too high.
Originally posted by Ewoowar
The current situation allows no choice for those who wish to have a drink in a smoke free environment. Smokers can smoke in any pub. It is their domain. Non-smokers who want to go to a pub can choose to sit in a smoke filled environment. However those who want to go to a pub but also do not wish to be subjected to smoke have no choice at all. So if the argument is about liberty and freedom of choice well it is heavily biased in favour of smokers. Ironically the people wo are most affected are those who are not inflicting anything upon anyone.
Reply ID 11646
Just ban it ..totally. then the 'drug barons ' can make their money dealing in something more acceptable if just as lethal..and if you are a smoker I'll freely take you to spend some time with my dad, a smoker for 50 + years and suffering
Reply ID 11647
Its our god given rite to put in our bodys what we want i will smoke that white stick to the but then lite another,some times i have to smoke three at a time or i would not be able to smoke 210 a day,its my body and i will treat it with the contempt it treats me,if you dont smoke then pubs arnt for you,the two have allways walked hand in hand
Reply ID 11648
quote:'fraid not. The oldest known pub in the UK is "Ye Olde Trip To Jerusalem " dating from the late 1100's whereas smoking arrved in the UK in the mid 1500's. Pubs were smoke free for 400 years and have been smoke full for 400 years now................time to claim them back for non-smokers for another 400.[:D]
Originally posted by del
Its our god given rite to put in our bodys what we want i will smoke that white stick to the but then lite another,some times i have to smoke three at a time or i would not be able to smoke 210 a day,its my body and i will treat it with the contempt it treats me,if you dont smoke then pubs arnt for you,the two have allways walked hand in hand
Reply ID 11650
Dam!!Fair comment,all im trying to say is give us smokers the rite to kill our selfs in pubs,all we ask is for a smoking area or it will be a nail in the coffin for the pub traid[}:)]
Reply ID 11651
Just don't expect the rest of us to to pay for your treatment when your lungs pack up. You've chosen how to die and the rest of shouldn't have to be inconvenienced by that. The world would probably be a better place if there were less people that made idiotic statements like "if you dont smoke then pubs aren't for you".
Reply ID 11653
I think that the ammount of tax that smokers pay on their cancer sticks goes some way towards paying for their treatment on the NHS
Reply ID 11654
quote:Yes but there are 2 other pubs in Nottingham that dispute this fact Sorry Mr Admin but this is an irrellevant post and you can slap my wrists for being pedantic - good job we are not all school kids any more else I might have got summoned to your office I think that the ban on smoking is a bit half hearted - If you are going to ban smoking in pubs it should be a blanket ban otherwise regulars that smoke will just go elsewhere and the non smoking pubs will lose trade. I am not sure if the smoking room would work either for similar reasons. I don't smoke and I don't like people that subject me to second hand smoke. Even worse are the smokers that walk along the streets smoking and the smoke goes behind them into my face - this happens a lot at Hertford North when people get off the train they immediately light up. Can't they wait until they get home or at least away from other people?
Originally posted by Ewoowar
The oldest known pub in the UK is "Ye Olde Trip To Jerusalem " dating from the late 1100's whereas smoking arrved in the UK in the mid 1500's.
Reply ID 11655
CULLING Bob CULLING.
Reply ID 11657
quote:Wouldn't that money be better spent on the poor unfortunates who find themselves in hospital through no fault of their own?
Originally posted by jez_p
I think that the ammount of tax that smokers pay on their cancer sticks goes some way towards paying for their treatment on the NHS
Reply ID 11666
But if the smokers didn't buy cigarettes the money wouldn't be there anyway. It is difficult to argue this one without any facts to back up how much it costs to treat smokers' ilnesses compared to what they pay in Taxes.
Reply ID 11673
quote:The 'food' that is referred to, is food that is actually PREPARED AND SERVED ON THE PREMISES. Prepackaged foodstuffs are not covered by this issue. Therefore you can carry on your crisp, nut and pork scratchings binge. Pickled eggs should be OK too, as they are pre-prepared off the premises (unless they make their own of course!) Then, who knows? [?]
Originally posted by Joby
Yesterday's announcement regarding the proposed ban on smoking in pubs got me thinking how it might affect pubs in Hertford, especially due to the exemption from the ban of pubs that don't serve food... Is it likely that occasional servers of food such as the Millstream might be encouraged to stop serving food altogether to avoid the ban? As the Salisbury Arms certainly won't stop serving food, who will claim the "smokiest town centre bar" crown? Which pubs, if any, are you more likely to visit once they are non-smoking? Assuming they don't stop food, I look forward to spending more time in the OXT - sellers of one of my favourite beers (TT's Landlord) but often just too foggy, especially in winter. And finally, do spicy pickled eggs and pork scratchings count as food?
Reply ID 11676
Didn't 'Gentlemen' have smoking clubs in days gone by? Women have now infultrated places like the Bengeo Club - Ex-Working Mens Club. Maybe there is some unknown law regarding places specialised for people smoking. Hopefully only the stuff you can buy in your local shop
Reply ID 11707
I see in the Mercury that a bloke received the attention of two policemen for urinating in Fore Street. B****y nanny state, disgraceful that the police should victimise someone like that, and it wasn't even indoors! [;)] Smokers & taxes: estimated that it's about £8bn tax and £1.5bn in direct healthcare costs - though those figures are for different years. Note, this does *not* include costs to the NHS and economy resulting from fires caused by smoking materials (about 160 a year), sickness & invalidity payments, days lost to productivity dues to smoking related illness (~£40m a year in Scotland alone), or the costs of increased litter, or the "cost of a life" applied to early death, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't include second hand smoke caused illness (including affects on foetus and baby when parents smoke or experience second-hand smoke). It also ignores the fact that it uses up resources (roughly 9,500 beds at any one time, for example) that may not be limited purely by financial constraints. Finally it does not take into account the fact that the money not spent on cigarettes (~£1,200 a year per smoker) does not vanish, and is instead spent on other services, which will be taxable (even if it's via company profits).
Reply ID 11708
quote:So would pre-packed sandwiches qualify as "food"? That maybe a way round pubs serving sarnies at lunch.
Originally posted by Roosterquote:The 'food' that is referred to, is food that is actually PREPARED AND SERVED ON THE PREMISES. Prepackaged foodstuffs are not covered by this issue. Therefore you can carry on your crisp, nut and pork scratchings binge. Pickled eggs should be OK too, as they are pre-prepared off the premises (unless they make their own of course!) Then, who knows? [?]
Originally posted by Joby
Yesterday's announcement regarding the proposed ban on smoking in pubs got me thinking how it might affect pubs in Hertford, especially due to the exemption from the ban of pubs that don't serve food... Is it likely that occasional servers of food such as the Millstream might be encouraged to stop serving food altogether to avoid the ban? As the Salisbury Arms certainly won't stop serving food, who will claim the "smokiest town centre bar" crown? Which pubs, if any, are you more likely to visit once they are non-smoking? Assuming they don't stop food, I look forward to spending more time in the OXT - sellers of one of my favourite beers (TT's Landlord) but often just too foggy, especially in winter. And finally, do spicy pickled eggs and pork scratchings count as food?
Reply ID 11779
I personally think you either ban all smoking regardless of food preparation or not! All this fluffing around.. Ban or no ban, stop pandering to the PC brigade! I am an ex-heavy smoker, but I prefer not smelling of smoke, but do like the company of some smokers but not all. I think its going to happen and just ban it once and for all. Most of my friends and I gave up in our 30's anyway so for us its not a problem and I did give up without patches etc, completely cold turkey! Just ban smoking and see the extra people who come into pubs and drink that don't at the moment...[:)]
Reply ID 11786
The government hasn't the stomach for the fight. It's the same as the hunting ban. They want to be seen to be doing the right thing but they ensure the legislation has sufficient loopholes to allow the old practices to continue. Banning smoking in places where food is served is a half baked attempt to appease the non-smoking majority.
Reply ID 11808
Quote from Victor Meldrew: "So would pre-packed sandwiches qualify as "food"? That maybe a way round pubs serving sarnies at lunch." It is a distinct possibility Victor but they would have to be "bought in" from an outside source and it would be difficult to assess how many you would need and what fillings. We like to make our sandwiches to order so that they are not tired and tasteless, and be able to actually have a decent amount of filling as opposed to "a smear of filling" between the two slices of bread. I, and probably all of you out there have the the sandwich which looks good in a wrapper but on opening you find that the filling doesn't even reach the edges of the bread. We will all have to watch this space as they say! Perhaps a new sandwich shop with off sales to pubs could be the pipeline for one of the empty premises in Hertford.
Reply ID 11813
Prepare and package your own Sarnies offsite! problem solved quality home made sarnies made available at lunch tie in pubs. Start with small selection and sell out make more if need be. Trial and error is the key. Heres another one. Would BBQed food in the pub garden packaged outside and then take in to the pub qualify as off premises. NB. I charge £40 ph for quality rule flouting advice to local small business!! No I dont deal with Cafe Nero.[8D]
Reply ID 11830
quote:
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
Prepare and package your own Sarnies offsite! problem solved quality home made sarnies made available at lunch tie in pubs. Start with small selection and sell out make more if need be. Trial and error is the key. Heres another one. Would BBQed food in the pub garden packaged outside and then take in to the pub qualify as off premises. NB. I charge £40 ph for quality rule flouting advice to local small business!! No I dont deal with Cafe Nero.[8D] Unfortunately no, BBQ food as quoted cannot be done. The complete premises from fence at top of garden to outside wall at front is part of licensed premises. Surveyors came and measured every damn mm.and drew a plan!
Reply ID 11831
Roof garden?
Reply ID 11856
I saw an article in a paper today saying that Wetherspoons have trialed non smoking pubs and they conclude that trade will drop off by 10% initially but then creep back up. I think that their data is flawed because presumably there was still the choice of alternative venues that allow smoking so the smokers went elsewhere. If there was a blanket ban then the choice wouldn't be there and therefore there would be less drop in trade.
Reply ID 11888
quote:At last. Someone who talks sense. Yes, if there were a total ban fewer businesses would go 'under'.
Originally posted by jez_p
I saw an article in a paper today saying that Wetherspoons have trialed non smoking pubs and they conclude that trade will drop off by 10% initially but then creep back up. I think that their data is flawed because presumably there was still the choice of alternative venues that allow smoking so the smokers went elsewhere. If there was a blanket ban then the choice wouldn't be there and therefore there would be less drop in trade
Reply ID 11926
Watching the TV this morning, it sounded like the nanny state wants a drinking ban as well!!! Does anyone know how to make bootleg whiskey?
Reply ID 11936
we used to make an apple based concoction whern i was at school. Will give you the recipe when i see you.
Reply ID 11949
we have two huge 70-year old apple trees in our garden and my neighbour asked if he could have all the apples we didn't need to make some apple schnapps with. It's amazing stuff too.
Reply ID 11956
mmmmmm Apples. See if they ban it it will just go underground and people will end up boozing on stronger drinks.
Reply ID 11963
quote:Is that a ban during the extended licensing hours, or the suggested on-train ban?
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
Watching the TV this morning, it sounded like the nanny state wants a drinking ban as well!!! Does anyone know how to make bootleg whiskey?
Reply ID 11965
No it was some muppet suggesting they should hike the prices of drink so high that people would not be able to go out and enjoy themselves. Maybe I was over exaggerating, but from what they were saying, that is what they would want. Firstly they want to ban happy hours and pubs selling shots of drink on offer, if 24 hour licencing comes in.
Reply ID 11968
Was this person a government minister, or a back-bencher?
Reply ID 11969
It was 7.15am I was still 1/2 asleep, so Im not sure.
Reply ID 11970
The British Beer and Pub Association are banning Happy Hours already. Pubs to scrap Happy Hour drinks http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4571989.stm
Reply ID 11971
quote:Okay, we're probably pretty safe for the moment, then. [:)]
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
It was 7.15am I was still 1/2 asleep, so Im not sure.
Reply ID 11972
Are there any pubs/bars in Hertford that have a happy hour. I still have found memories of ordering 20 Kamikaze's at 7.29pm in Sloppy Joes
Reply ID 11978
Doesn't the Woolpack have one from 5pm-7pm? Just early enough to miss if you work in London
Reply ID 11981
quote:That's a Happy Two Hours!!
Originally posted by thefair1973
Doesn't the Woolpack have one from 5pm-7pm? Just early enough to miss if you work in London
Reply ID 12015
It would be interesting to know the views of the local publicans regarding the proposed smoking 'limitations'.
Reply ID 12018
quote:Ban cigarettes completely.not just in pubs, fullstop...
Originally posted by Ewoowar
It would be interesting to know the views of the local publicans regarding the proposed smoking 'limitations'.
Reply ID 12019
How about banning eating in public some people are pretty gross[xx(][xx(]
Reply ID 12027
See your point Tigger!!!! Banning cigarettes completely would be yet another lucrative source of income for organised crime gangs. A lot of people cant or wont give up smoking, and will buy cigarettes on the black market. They're talking about banning drinking on trains, how long before they ban drinking in pubs?????
Reply ID 12035
I cannot agree that people "cannot give up smoking" I really did smoke back to back ciggies and was not unlike Patsy from Ab Fab fame! If you want to give up you can.. its all about want. I am concerned about where the revenue from taxes that smokers pay when buying ciggies will come from and that is a problem. But as seen in Ireland they still have full pubs and its not a problem to them. I think the time has come to say no smoking and you can still go outside to smoke, which you have to do if you work in an office anyway.. whats the difference???
Reply ID 12037
quote:I agree. Most offices require smokers to go outside to smoke and I know people who rent their homes and have to go outside to smoke.
Originally posted by Drama Queen
I cannot agree that people "cannot give up smoking" I really did smoke back to back ciggies and was not unlike Patsy from Ab Fab fame! If you want to give up you can.. its all about want. I am concerned about where the revenue from taxes that smokers pay when buying ciggies will come from and that is a problem. But as seen in Ireland they still have full pubs and its not a problem to them. I think the time has come to say no smoking and you can still go outside to smoke, which you have to do if you work in an office anyway.. whats the difference???
Reply ID 12044
The revenue from smokers will come in other forms as an average smoker would have over £1000 pounds a year extra to spend on other things. The problem with making people smoke outside is that they tend to congregate around the entrances (the entrance to the QEII is a good example), making them impossible to avoid. It becomes very difficult to avoid smoke at places like railway stations (esp. when it is raining) and there is as yet no expectation that smoking will be banned in areas like that. An estimate in the BMJ earlier this year was that about 54 bar staff die every year as a result of passive smoking.
Reply ID 12048
quote:I've seen this elsewhere and it is for me the most persuasive argument for banning smoking in pubs. Surely industries in a first world country shouldn't accept this number of deaths at work; the building industry is bad enough but at least they try to do something about what is a potentially dangerous work. But serving in a pub; there should be no risks with that industry apart from bending down and picking up bottles.
Originally posted by skanky An estimate in the BMJ earlier this year was that about 54 bar staff die every year as a result of passive smoking.
Reply ID 12067
quote:There is a lot more to it than bending down and picking up bottles, believe me. You don't know the half of it.
Originally posted by Rabbit Rabbitquote:I've seen this elsewhere and it is for me the most persuasive argument for banning smoking in pubs. Surely industries in a first world country shouldn't accept this number of deaths at work; the building industry is bad enough but at least they try to do something about what is a potentially dangerous work. But serving in a pub; there should be no risks with that industry apart from bending down and picking up bottles.
Originally posted by skanky An estimate in the BMJ earlier this year was that about 54 bar staff die every year as a result of passive smoking.
Reply ID 12078
quote:I think that the comment was meant as a figurative illustration. Every job has its own unavoidable risks (like bending down and picking up bottles) - Smoking is avoidable and bar workers shouldn't have to have their health compromised by the selfish attitudes of other smokers
Originally posted by Rooster
There is a lot more to it than bending down and picking up bottles, believe me. You don't know the half of it.
Reply ID 12086
I would pont out to everyone who object to fags in pubs that although I am playing devils advocat, many small pubs that sell food will not be able to do so under the new law and will simply be put out of business. "Shame" I can hear you all crying in your beer, but spare a thought to where you lot will have left to moan about. Do you complain about smoking while you are in the pub?
Reply ID 12098
One thing that annoys me is when a pub has fairly efficient extractor systems but for some reason the landlord seems reluctant to turn it on (or up when particular smokey). For example, in the OXT last night several people had to make requests before the extractor was turned up enough to deal with the puffers occupying the long table by the bar.
Reply ID 12163
The BMJ estimate (and this is very much an estimate!) of 54 deaths can be put into perspective by the following. American deaths recorded 2002. Bitten by dog 18, Drowning by falling into bathtub 352, accidental suffocation/strangulation in bed 509, falling from furniture 785. Makes me think working in a pub is pretty safe? VBG
Reply ID 12167
quote:Surely if they rely on their food profits, the smoking ban will not affect them as the majority of people do not mind not smoking at a dinner table. If however loosing their smoking clientel would affect their profit margins, they should do away with serving food.
Originally posted by gobby
I would pont out to everyone who object to fags in pubs that although I am playing devils advocat, many small pubs that sell food will not be able to do so under the new law and will simply be put out of business. "Shame" I can hear you all crying in your beer, but spare a thought to where you lot will have left to moan about. Do you complain about smoking while you are in the pub?
Reply ID 12181
quote:Yes but that's out of over 250 million people (~295 million in July 2005), as opposed to the considerably less number who work in pubs, in this country. Half that number of "hospitality workers" (out of 3,600 in the total population) die from passive smoking at home.
Originally posted by Pelham 123
The BMJ estimate (and this is very much an estimate!) of 54 deaths can be put into perspective by the following. American deaths recorded 2002. Bitten by dog 18, Drowning by falling into bathtub 352, accidental suffocation/strangulation in bed 509, falling from furniture 785. Makes me think working in a pub is pretty safe? VBG
Reply ID 12194
There are a million websites where people can discuss smokers' and non-smokers' rights and their supporting statistics to their hearts' content but this is a HERTFORD website. I think the post that started this thread was attempting to put a local slant on this national issue. The smoke free Herts website http://www.smokefreeherts.org.uk/ lists restaurants that offer smoke free dining. I wonder how accurate it is, though, as it indicates that smoking is allowed in parts of The Hillside (not the restaurant, maybe the bar?) but I thought the Hillside was in fact a totally smoke-free premises? Perhaps Justin can clarify. [?] Earlier in this thread, someone mentioned The White Horse in Castle Street and its upstairs no-smoking rooms. As far as I am aware, this is the only truly smoke free pub environment in Hertford (so long as no-one is smoking in the little bar billiards room upstairs; smoking is allowed there which makes rather a nonsense of the Fire Regs point). All the other local pubs that have non-smoking areas have them as part of a bar where smoking is allowed and/or they are only no smoking areas at certain times of the day. Or does anyone know different, is there a bar or pub (not a restaurant) in Hertford where you can enjoy a guaranteed smoke-free drink? Someone said the White Horse Hotel at Hertingfordbury, including its bar, is totally non-smoking, can anyone confirm? BTW, many regular smokers use smuggled products and are not paying VAT or UK duty. Here in Hertford, you just have to get a word-of-mouth introduction to certain bar staff in certain establishments, or know the right thing to say to the man in one of the 'ice cream' vans that do the rounds of Hertford's estates and you get your tabs or your baccy for around 50 - 70% of what you would pay in a shop. Hence the exotic selection of languages you see giving the health warning on the empty fag packets discarded in Hertford's pubs and in the streets.
Reply ID 12211
I think Rachel certainly had lots to say, after the opening para seemed to be complaining about the fag issue on the Hertford Forum. As for Victor, well what on earth are you talking about, "pubs should not loose money by becoming non-smoking and if they do, well just stop selling food". Do you think you could enlighten me, because my interpretation is that either way the publican will loose???????? Sorry Victor, I know you like everyone to agree with your views[V]
Reply ID 12287
quote:You have not read my quote properly. Pubs that riley on profit from there restaurants very rarely have regular custom from people drinking at the bar such as the hillside. Therefore to ban smoking in these types of establishments would cause a great loss in profit, as the majority of people would not create at eating in a non-smoking restaurant and would still frequent such establishments. On the flip side, pubs that do not rely on their food profits, such as the Millstream will not have anything to worry about. Fairly simple I think.
Originally posted by gobby
I think Rachel certainly had lots to say, after the opening para seemed to be complaining about the fag issue on the Hertford Forum. As for Victor, well what on earth are you talking about, "pubs should not loose money by becoming non-smoking and if they do, well just stop selling food". Do you think you could enlighten me, because my interpretation is that either way the publican will loose???????? Sorry Victor, I know you like everyone to agree with your views[V]
Reply ID 12300
Victor, exactly my point, if as you say the Millstream does not rely on food for their profits, and it eventually becomes non smoking, and as many of the forum members say that it is the smokiest pub in Hertford how long do you think they will be able to carry on trading. I thought the Millstream had quite a busy food enterprise it certainly seemed busy last Sunday, what are you suggesting that they give the food away?
Reply ID 12304
quote:Your last reply does not make sense, you say that your point is the same as mine and then go on to suggest the Millstream would not survive. The Millstream will not become non smoking as: The Smoking ban is only for Pubs that serve food. The Millstream only serves food on a Sunday. Do you really think that Jamie will ban smoking in the Millstream so that he can carry on to serve 20 or so Sunday Lunches? He would have an empty pub Monday to Sunday Does that explain things a little better?? Just out of interest how would giving food away get round a smoking ban in a pub that prepares food on their premises?
Originally posted by gobby
Victor, exactly my point, if as you say the Millstream does not rely on food for their profits, and it eventually becomes non smoking, and as many of the forum members say that it is the smokiest pub in Hertford how long do you think they will be able to carry on trading. I thought the Millstream had quite a busy food enterprise it certainly seemed busy last Sunday, what are you suggesting that they give the food away?
Reply ID 12344
To bring a Hertford slant back to this discussion, what is your experience of the efficiency or not of smoke extractos in various venues? Examples I've encountered: Old Cross Tavern ---------------- Very good extractors as long as the bar staff remember to turn them on or ratchet them up when the level of smoke increases. White Horse (Left Hand Bar) --------------------------- Industrial strength extractor (I've seen people lobbing beer mats in the slipstream for them to stick to the extractor). As it is gale force and quite drafty it is hardly ever turned on; consequently, the bar rapidly gets full of smoke in the winter when the windows are closed.
Reply ID 12345
I was in the Old Cross tavern earlier this week and the air seemed so clear I had to look around to check if there were any smokers. The next day I noted that my jacket didn't stink as well.
Reply ID 12359
Victor, sorry but you are wrong on both, if the Millstream only serves meals on a Sunday, will you go along Tuesday and see the pensioners eating there. The smoking ban will be across the board as it is in Ireland smoking will be banned in all public places, it may well start off being banned in food places but will slowly creep up and be banned everywhere, for which I am sure we will all be a lit healthier, the only drawback being, in my humble opinion, is that eventually there will be less and less places open. You only have to look at the impact made on pubs since supermarkets have sold booze
Reply ID 12367
It matters not. No sooner is the unworkable law in place, someone will challenge it and then smoking will get a blanket ban in bars, like it should always have had. John Reid was only fighting the partial ban to win over traditional labour voters. it was never workable.
Reply ID 12372
quote:Where have you got your information that the ban will be in all public areas, or is that just something that you believe may happen??? If there are statements that the government will do this, then yes it will affect profit in pubs and clubs. The subject of this topic has always been the ban in pubs serving food prepared on premises. Yesterday's announcement regarding the proposed ban on smoking in pubs got me thinking how it might affect pubs in Hertford, especially due to the exemption from the ban of pubs that don't serve food... Original quote in red Had the topic been " will pubs loose profit if they ban smoking in them" I would have agreed with you. If the Millstream serves pensioners food on a Tuesday, then I stand corrected. However, I stand by my comment that Jamie would still stop serving Sunday and Tuesday if the ban happens.
Originally posted by gobby
Victor, sorry but you are wrong on both, if the Millstream only serves meals on a Sunday, will you go along Tuesday and see the pensioners eating there. The smoking ban will be across the board as it is in Ireland smoking will be banned in all public places, it may well start off being banned in food places but will slowly creep up and be banned everywhere, for which I am sure we will all be a lit healthier, the only drawback being, in my humble opinion, is that eventually there will be less and less places open. You only have to look at the impact made on pubs since supermarkets have sold booze
Reply ID 13048
Victor to reply to your last post re Millstream, you seem to be well informed as to what Jamie will do or not do when the smoking ban is in force, do you have some special relationship with him? My own interpretation of Jamie is although a throughly nice bloke but he dont know what's happening tonight, shouldnt think he cares either!!!
Reply ID 13055
[quote]Originally posted by gobby
Victor to reply to your last post re Millstream, you seem to be well informed as to what Jamie will do or not do when the smoking ban is in force, do you have some special relationship with him? My own interpretation of Jamie is although a throughly nice bloke but he dont know what's happening tonight, shouldnt think he cares either!!!
[/quote
What was happening last nite?
Reply ID 13056
quote:What did I miss?
Originally posted by Shamber
[quote]Originally posted by gobby
Victor to reply to your last post re Millstream, you seem to be well informed as to what Jamie will do or not do when the smoking ban is in force, do you have some special relationship with him? My own interpretation of Jamie is although a throughly nice bloke but he dont know what's happening tonight, shouldnt think he cares either!!! [/quote What was happening last nite?
Reply ID 13128
From the City pages of a reputable tabloid Pub cigs not food MITCHELLS & BUTLERS, owner of Harvester, Toby, All Bar One and O’Neill’s pubs, yesterday tore into Government plans to ban smoking in pubs where food is served. Chief executive Tim Clarke said M&B is considering stopping food in 400 of its 2,000 pubs to let smoking continue. He added: “There’s around a fifth of our pubs where, if this laughable proposal were to go through, it would be commercially advantageous for us to take the food out. “That’s not a threat — it’s the reality of the stupidity behind the proposal.” So there you go, I rest my case.
Reply ID 16889
quote:Not so much of an issue anymore is it!
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
MITCHELLS & BUTLERS, owner of Harvester, Toby, All Bar One and O’Neill’s pubs, yesterday tore into Government plans to ban smoking in pubs where food is served. Chief executive Tim Clarke said M&B is considering stopping food in 400 of its 2,000 pubs to let smoking continue. He added: “There’s around a fifth of our pubs where, if this laughable proposal were to go through, it would be commercially advantageous for us to take the food out. “That’s not a threat — it’s the reality of the stupidity behind the proposal.” So there you go, I rest my case.
Reply ID 16895
Can you explain your comment please Steve? I did'nt watch the news last night I was enjoying Valentines night.
Reply ID 16896
Here are the facts for anyone else that was romancing last night. I must say it will be nice to not come home smelling of smoke, but I am slightly shocked they have gone for a blanket ban, especially in Private Members Clubs, which will include the likes the Rugby Club. Facts on the ban THE BAN will start in summer, 2007. Smoking will be illegal in England’s 53,000 pubs, 20,000 private clubs, nightclubs, restaurants, on public transport, in taxis, shops, malls, offices, factories, cinemas and theatres. There will be no more indoor “smoking rooms” in workplaces. Smoking WILL be allowed outdoors, in private houses, hotel bedrooms, prisons, stadiums PLUS smoking rooms in hospitals and care homes. Smokers will also be able to light up outside pubs — and at outdoor restaurants if the owners allow it. Smokers who break regulations will have to pay a fixed £50 penalty. Premises failing to enforce the ban will be fined up to £2,500. There will be £200 on-the-spot fines for failing to display no smoking signs. Popping into Wales or Scotland for a fag won’t help — bans are planned there. Northern Ireland is outlawing cigs too
Reply ID 16903
quote:This should be banned too in my opinion. if you're sat next to someone who wants to light up, you should be asked if you mind. If so, then they should be stopped. Lets face the facts here, smoking & passive smoking kills. Anyone who doesn't beleive that is foolish. If the government had any balls, they would ban tobacco altogether, but they do love that tax revenue, so it will never happen.
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
Smokers will also be able to light up outside pubs — and at outdoor restaurants if the owners allow it.
Reply ID 16907
Yes the love the Tax revenue, so if they do even ban the sale of ciggarette, they will only lump the tax on to something else.
Reply ID 16911
There is no doubt that smoking is very harmful and I smoked, on and off, until September last year. I have to say that giving up this time has been made considerably easier because there are smoke free pubs and restaurants and no smoking in my workplace. Of course it's a free country but it isn't being made illegal completely and this might just help the large numbers of people who really want to give up to succeed. I only think of smoking now when I catch a whiff of someone lighting up! I'd really like to see the outside smoking areas at places of work to be somewhere other than just outside the doors EVERYONE has to use. I hold my breath now as I walk into work past the puffers but my clothes still pick up the smell. [xx(][xx(]
Reply ID 16917
Restrictions on smoking cannot possibly be harmful. It can only be a good thing. I believe in the future we will look back to this period and will be amazed that humans stuck things in their mouths, lit the other end and inhaled the smoke!
Reply ID 16918
quote:That's been going on for hundreds or thousands of years. It's the cynical manipulation of the habit/addiction by those who get very rich on the back of it that's relatively recent.
Originally posted by Ewoowar I believe in the future we will look back to this period and will be amazed that humans stuck things in their mouths, lit the other end and inhaled the smoke!
Reply ID 16920
Strange that I read a novel (possibly by Arthur C Clarke) a few years ago but set in the near future where smoking is considered anti-social to such an extent that censors removed any references to cigarettes in old films (I think Casablanca was mentioned in the book).
Reply ID 16924
Must be daft but how are these fines going to be impossed and by who? Surely we don't have to put up with more jobs worths wearing peaked caps to make them feel important.
Reply ID 16925
nope, but I reckon I'll be informing on anyone who lights up. Dirty blighters :)
Reply ID 16926
People like Smokers more than they do a grass!
Reply ID 16931
quote:Ahaa! A use for the excess number of traffic wardens and a revenue opportunity for the council to make up the financial shortfall!
Originally posted by Tigger
Must be daft but how are these fines going to be impossed and by who? Surely we don't have to put up with more jobs worths wearing peaked caps to make them feel important.
Reply ID 16932
quote:But you don't know who to inform[:D]
Originally posted by thefair1973
nope, but I reckon I'll be informing on anyone who lights up. Dirty blighters :)
Reply ID 16933
quote:My guess would be that it would work in the same way as any other criminal offence, ie if police got a complaint or became aware that an offence was taking place then they'd investigate.
Originally posted by Tigger
Must be daft but how are these fines going to be impossed and by who? Surely we don't have to put up with more jobs worths wearing peaked caps to make them feel important.
Reply ID 16934
quote:So if your neighbour was beating up his wife, I assume you wouldn't "grass" on him either.
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
People like Smokers more than they do a grass!
Reply ID 16935
I really cant see the police screaming round to a pub, blue lights flashing just to catch someone in the act, can you? I can see it now! Excuuussse me Sir, we ave reason to believe you ave been smookin in a public place, would you like to accompany us to the station! What I can see is the police getting involved at the landlord fining stage, if a number of complaints were made.
Reply ID 16936
quote:No, I dont like my Neighbours wife!
Originally posted by BobHquote:So if your neighbour was beating up his wife, I assume you wouldn't "grass" on him either.
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
People like Smokers more than they do a grass!
Reply ID 16939
quote:If it's an easy nick (like catching speeding motorists) then I reckon it will happen. At the end of the day it will make their figures look better if they can issue loads of easy fines.
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
I really cant see the police screaming round to a pub, blue lights flashing just to catch someone in the act, can you? I can see it now!
Reply ID 16943
quote:Police don't issue fines, magistrates do (except in the case of offences where police have dispensation to issue on-the-spot fines, which isn't applicable here). As I said, I would imagine the situation to be similar to if a pub were to open outside its permitted hours. They wouldn't go round with sirens blazing, but would call nontheless, probably to say that further violations could result in action being taken. This is just conjecture on my part though.
Originally posted by JohnSmith
At the end of the day it will make their figures look better if they can issue loads of easy fines.
Reply ID 16944
What happens in the other countries that have this sort of law?
Reply ID 16945
quote:In Ireland, there are signs everywhere stating fines of up to a grand will be levied if patrons are caught smoking. Despite having visited many pubs in Ireland in my time, and having seen a monolithic number of these signs, I have never seen any form of enforcement. Perhaps it will be a self regulating system, where it will become socially unacceptable to smoke in these types of pubs...
Originally posted by skanky
What happens in the other countries that have this sort of law?
Reply ID 16950
I feel like a leper being a smoker anyway so I am already socially unacceptable.
Reply ID 16952
quote:Join the club - we need to run an underground smoking den. Despite the comments there are still a lot of us about.
Originally posted by Wrapper
I feel like a leper being a smoker anyway so I am already socially unacceptable.
Reply ID 16954
quote:Underground? How about the subways? I don't think they are used for anything else. (No offence meant - just jovial banter)
Originally posted by Tiggerquote:Join the club - we need to run an underground smoking den. Despite the comments there are still a lot of us about.
Originally posted by Wrapper
I feel like a leper being a smoker anyway so I am already socially unacceptable.
Reply ID 16962
Smoking Ban Summer 2007, how long after will taking drinks outside be outlawed?.
Reply ID 16967
quote:They're not outlawed in Italy or Ireland yet, why would they be here?
Originally posted by spitfire
Smoking Ban Summer 2007, how long after will taking drinks outside be outlawed?.
Reply ID 16971
The inevitable problems of crowds of people blocking pavements, glasses & bottles left/broken outside, no doubt fighting between differing groups. They banned drinking outside the White Horse where it was controlled and caused no problems.....the same can't be said for certain other pubs in Hertford.
Reply ID 16972
Is it not already illegal to consume alcohol in a public place and as Castle Street is also occupied by residents, this maybe the reason.
Reply ID 16974
quote:Has that started happening in Italy and Ireland?
The inevitable problems of crowds of people blocking pavements, glasses & bottles left/broken outside, no doubt fighting between differing groups.
Reply ID 16975
not meaning to generalise too much, but I thought the Italians did'nt really do fighting and the Irish are normally too drun k to care [:D]
Reply ID 16976
quote:The Italians did fighting so much, they fought both sides and themselves in the forties, and if you're unsure about now, then you haven't seen rival football fans over there. But maybe they're generally less mindless than the English and so do fight less? [;)]
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
not meaning to generalise too much, but I thought the Italians did'nt really do fighting and the Irish are normally too drun k to care [:D]
Reply ID 16979
Dont worry, I came out with my funny head on today! [:I]
Reply ID 16980
quote:Technically, the subways are a public place and they have a roof, so it will be banned there too. You all may as well give up. Go on, it's easy! After all, any smoker can give up tomorrow if they wanted, right?? [:D]
Originally posted by Rooster
How about the subways? I don't think they are used for anything else. (No offence meant - just jovial banter)
Reply ID 16981
quote:I just find it amusing that the one country who fought everyone including themselves is often portrayed as being against the idea of fighting. [;)] The other stuff was more on topic. [:)]
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
Dont worry, I came out with my funny head on today! [:I]