Topic ID 893
HERTFORD must have a bypass! Traffic is so bad now! Won't even think about going anywhere after about 4 ish! Can take half an hour to get though town now! Love hertford lived here for 30 years! If there was one thing i would change it would be the traffic problems!!! How bad will it if have to be? More and more flats and houses! Where will problems end? Please do something about it herts council surly we have the money! How can we take action?
Reply ID 9712
Archived discussion here... http://www.hertford.net/yoursay/topic.php?id=396 id="green">
Reply ID 21534
Admin has archived the bypass discussion but the link is here. All our views are probably unchanged but it would be interesting to hear what some of the newer members think about a bypass.
Reply ID 21540
quote:A bypass Is definitly A way forward. The reduction in traffic can only be benificial to hertford.
Originally posted by 2929paul
Admin has archived the bypass discussion but the link is here. All our views are probably unchanged but it would be interesting to hear what some of the newer members think about a bypass.
Reply ID 21607
Couldn't agree more. Hertford is being killed by the A414. Does anyone know why the council are not giving it serious consideration? Little Hadham is getting one, Standon is getting one, Baldock has one, but the worst offender, Hertford seems to be off the table. If the Mercury want a story that will unite most of the population of Hertford and Ware, them they need to push for a bypass! Even on environmental grounds, a bypass will be better for the air than the current situation. Edited by Admin for bad language
Reply ID 21630
Well my vote is against more roads. Hertford is only bad for a couple of hours a day during the rush hour anyway. Rather that then carve up more gorgeous Hertfordshire countryside.
Reply ID 21650
Bury the 414 I say.
Reply ID 21654
quote:Doubt if you would say that if you have to use that route everyday. A Bypass would solve a multitude of problems & make Hertford a far nicer place to live, work & visit.
Originally posted by Sargasso
Well my vote is against more roads. Hertford is only bad for a couple of hours a day during the rush hour anyway. Rather that then carve up more gorgeous Hertfordshire countryside.
Reply ID 21669
quote:Its at a virtual stand still for over 4 hours a day. Much as I like the ideal of protecting the country side, I would prefer to protect the health of the towns children than a bunch of farmers fields that no one sees.
Originally posted by Sargasso
Well my vote is against more roads. Hertford is only bad for a couple of hours a day during the rush hour anyway. Rather that then carve up more gorgeous Hertfordshire countryside.
Reply ID 21676
quote:Whoa, sweeping statement! Fields that nobody sees? What about walkers and cyclists. What about the junctions at either end and the bridges created to pass under or over Horns Mill Road, Brickendon Lane and Mangrove Road (and most probably London Road as well). Take a look at the map and you'll see what's "in the way". Don't get me wrong, I think it's an idea worth serious consideration, but you need to be aware that it will impact alot more than "a bunch of farmers fields"! [:)]
Originally posted by Dude
Much as I like the ideal of protecting the country side, I would prefer to protect the health of the towns children than a bunch of farmers fields that no one sees.
Reply ID 21677
Dare I say Tunnel!
Reply ID 21678
quote:As a user of the country (cycling, running and walking), I hate the noise and destruction that major roads cause. Sorry just don't think more roads is the answer... And if we cared so much for our children's health then we'd all be driving less anyway but we've made ourselves 100% reliant on the car
Much as I like the ideal of protecting the country side, I would prefer to protect the health of the towns children than a bunch of farmers fields that no one sees.
Reply ID 21680
quote:The cost would be astronomical. Funding for a Hertford Bypass is going to be hard enough.
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
Dare I say Tunnel!
Reply ID 21682
quote:I see your point! [:)] It was a bit sweeping! However, I probably wouldn't be far wrong to suggest that the land used would be 95% farmland. There are no nature reserves and no forests. And the environmental arguement seems to be thinning due to the excessive damage caused by traffic jams. Hertford has to have a bypass, its a matter of when. I say now!
Originally posted by Stevequote:Whoa, sweeping statement! Fields that nobody sees? What about walkers and cyclists. What about the junctions at either end and the bridges created to pass under or over Horns Mill Road, Brickendon Lane and Mangrove Road (and most probably London Road as well). Take a look at the map and you'll see what's "in the way". Don't get me wrong, I think it's an idea worth serious consideration, but you need to be aware that it will impact alot more than "a bunch of farmers fields"! [:)]
Originally posted by Dude
Much as I like the ideal of protecting the country side, I would prefer to protect the health of the towns children than a bunch of farmers fields that no one sees.
Reply ID 21684
quote:I hear what you are saying, however the suggestion of a bypass is not to take away your ability to use the country. Its about using a tiny proportion of it to lift incredible amounts of stress on a small town which cannot cope with 21st century transport. I'm sure we'd all love the idea of using public transport, but every government has failed to make it work. In the county, the whole system suits north to south travel. Getting east to west would require new railways, which would require much more distruction than a bypass. Can I ask what you think would be a better solution than a bypass?
Originally posted by Sargassoquote:As a user of the country (cycling, running and walking), I hate the noise and destruction that major roads cause. Sorry just don't think more roads is the answer... And if we cared so much for our children's health then we'd all be driving less anyway but we've made ourselves 100% reliant on the car
Much as I like the ideal of protecting the country side, I would prefer to protect the health of the towns children than a bunch of farmers fields that no one sees.
Reply ID 21687
Hi all I'd be interested to know how much of the delays along the Ware Road in the morning are caused by traffic which has to go all the way into the town centre (well to Tesco's at any rate) and then has to turn right to go virtually all the way out of town(!) again to the Mead Lane industrial estates. I'm thinking particularly of the very large haulage lorries etc. I'm not saying it would be the answer to all of Hertford's problems but surely if someone was to look at opening up a new road which went from Ware Road, across the marshes to the bottom end of Mead Lane, this could then reduce a large amount of the traffic that's dragged into Hertford only to be sent out again in a different direction.... I believe in the past that Rowleys Road may have gone further round than it does not (before my time here in Hertford) but this is probably too small with the surrounding houses to be able to cope with large vehicles, hence my suggestion of a new road crossing the marshes. Whilst this would no doubt be costly, it certainly wouldn't cost as much as a tunnel under Hertford and would also solve some of the other traffic problems blighting the east side of the town. Comments? Cheers Hertfordian
Reply ID 21690
quote:Any form of tunnel would simply cost too much, and I believe prove ineffective. The only way to keep the cost down would be to build a "cut and cover" tunnel, which would cause far more distruction than a bypass, as it would have to be wider to incorporate emergency services.
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
Dare I say Tunnel!
Reply ID 22649
Nearly 2 weeks gone. Can anyone suggest a viable alternative to a bypass?
Reply ID 22657
No, I think that's the problem![;)]
Reply ID 22665
quote:I'm actually suprised how few people here on the forum have a strong view about a bypass, particularly as there are quite a few moans about the traffic. Of the people I know in Hertford, I would say approx 95% want a bypass. Maybe the majority of forum members don't remember how great Hertford town centre was before it was cut in two by the A414 dual carrageway. I was only a kid, but even I knew it was much better before! I think the Stansted expansion will force a bypass eventually (as it is at standon and Little Hadham), so best get our town back now rather than later! [:)]
Originally posted by ~Sarah~
No, I think that's the problem![;)]
Reply ID 22667
In principle, I'm in favour of a bypass.
Reply ID 22670
would a bypass necessarily mean the town centre would be rejoined? presumably you'd still need a road where the current 414 is? how did it work before? are there any old maps?
Reply ID 22671
quote:Much as it would be nice to have the town back the way it was before the Relief Road, I think that there will always be a need for some sort of thoroughfare along the current route.
Originally posted by codek2
would a bypass necessarily mean the town centre would be rejoined? presumably you'd still need a road where the current 414 is?
quote:In the library, from the late 19th Century, very reasonably priced. I have a town guide from the 1930s. If the map in it is out of copyright I'll post it here later.
Originally posted by codek2
how did it work before? ... are there any old maps?
Reply ID 22675
I think there is a certain inevitability that Hertford will one day have a by-pass. It is clear that the town (and A414) cannot support the volume of traffic that uses it. This forum discusses many issues concerning traffic congestion, rat-runs and parking, all of which are directly affected by the lack of dealing with the core issue. I enjoy the countryside surrounding our town as much as the next, but think that a by-pass is the only option. Just because there is no clear answer to what is a growing problem does not mean that a decision should not be taken. I just feel that for those who make such decisions, it is easier to concentrate on managing the traffic, rather than dealing with what would be a very sensitive local issue.
Reply ID 22676
A Bypass would serve to create a new southern boundary to the town. Strip development along the bypass would probably follow and before long it would be difficult to hold onto green belt status for the land between the town and the bypass. 'Look at all that space for new housing and development' would come the cry from Westminster. Hertford would grow considerably in size and the scale and character of the town that people love would be lost. As land around the M25 is perpetually gobbled up for development, how long would it be before Hertford becomes London's most Northern suburb? An alternative to the bypass? How about a USA style flyover on stilts above the existing Gascoyne Way for through traffic? It would be less expensive than a tunnel although I recognise that the railway bridge bottle neck would be difficult to overcome.[:p]
Reply ID 22677
quote:Wasn't that suggested in an April Fools (2005?) article in the Mercury (with slip roads onto the top floor of Gascoyne Way car park)?
Originally posted by Jimbo
A Bypass would serve to create a new southern boundary to the town. Strip development along the bypass would probably follow and before long it would be difficult to hold onto green belt status for the land between the town and the bypass. 'Look at all that space for new housing and development' would come the cry from Westminster. Hertford would grow considerably in size and the scale and character of the town that people love would be lost. As land around the M25 is perpetually gobbled up for development, how long would it be before Hertford becomes London's most Northern suburb? An alternative to the bypass? How about a USA style flyover on stilts above the existing Gascoyne Way for through traffic? It would be less expensive than a tunnel although I recognise that the railway bridge bottle neck would be difficult to overcome.[:p]
Reply ID 22678
quote:Don't know. Possibly. But I'd prefer it to a bypass, and it could be a thing of beauty with the right engineering. No slip roads though, through traffic only.
Originally posted by Ray_by_the_Beane Wasn't that suggested in an April Fools (2005?) article in the Mercury (with slip roads onto the top floor of Gascoyne Way car park)?
Reply ID 22681
there was a proposed bypass route many years ago wasnt there? came out somewhere / somehow near the hertingfordbury roundabout?
Reply ID 22683
quote:I don’t see how building a bypass would stop the town being split in two as we would still need the road for local traffic. It’s hard to see how the existing road could be returned to single-lanes, and even if it was, that would make little difference to the idea of a 'split'. It's not my experience 95% of people in Hertford are supportive of a bypass – I'd suggest it’s more like 50-50 amongst those that have a firm view, and many (like me) torn on the issue.
Originally posted by Dude
I'm actually suprised how few people here on the forum have a strong view about a bypass, particularly as there are quite a few moans about the traffic. Of the people I know in Hertford, I would say approx 95% want a bypass. Maybe the majority of forum members don't remember how great Hertford town centre was before it was cut in two by the A414 dual carrageway.
Reply ID 22689
Map of Hertford before the Relief Road [img]http://www.hertford.net/images/hertford_map.jpg[/img]
Reply ID 22711
Also [img]http://richard-hale-association.org.uk/photos/drive2.jpg[/img] The Richard Hale School Drive came all the way to castle street [img]http://richard-hale-association.org.uk/photos/drive2.jpg[/img] Photos from http://richard-hale-association.org.uk/photos/drive2.jpg[/img] used by permission of the webmaster
Reply ID 22718
Gosh Never realised that - thanks for sharing the photos! How old are they?
Reply ID 22730
quote:I thought so, but before I came to Hertford so don't know the details. Rejected on environmental grounds after pressure from residents, I believe.
Originally posted by codek2
there was a proposed bypass route many years ago wasnt there? came out somewhere / somehow near the hertingfordbury roundabout?
Reply ID 22734
quote:The pictures come from the Richard Hale Association Archive - I unfortunately don't have exact dates. MDT raided the archive with his scanner to get them (with permission) See [url="http://richard-hale-association.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=54"]This Link[/url] for more
Originally posted by Deveraux
Gosh Never realised that - thanks for sharing the photos! How old are they?
Reply ID 22759
quote:There shouldn't be an issue with converting Gascoyne Way to single carriageway if the through traffic goes elsewhere. There are many examples in London where the number of lanes has been reduced drastically - for example, Holloway Road (the A1) through Holloway, and parts of the Tottenham Hale gyratory. Kensington High Street has recently been reworked to much acclaim, taking out barriers, reducing the quantity of street furniture, etc. While it remains dual carriageway, each only has a single lane. If this can be done on major roads in central London, it can surely work in Hertford once it only has to handle local traffic.
I don’t see how building a bypass would stop the town being split in two as we would still need the road for local traffic. It’s hard to see how the existing road could be returned to single-lanes, and even if it was, that would make little difference to the idea of a 'split'.
Reply ID 22760
quote:Agreed - take a look at the changes made to the old A10 in Wadesmill; the road has been reduced to single carriageway up the hill, narrowed in places to allow for extra parking and wider pavements etc. They have reclaimed a lovely village environment now that the traffic is routed elsewhere. No reason the same couldn't be done along the A414 if Hertford were to be bypassed.
Originally posted by Stephen
There shouldn't be an issue with converting Gascoyne Way to single carriageway if the through traffic goes elsewhere. There are many examples in London where the number of lanes has been reduced drastically - for example, Holloway Road (the A1) through Holloway, and parts of the Tottenham Hale gyratory. Kensington High Street has recently been reworked to much acclaim, taking out barriers, reducing the quantity of street furniture, etc. While it remains dual carriageway, each only has a single lane. If this can be done on major roads in central London, it can surely work in Hertford once it only has to handle local traffic.
Reply ID 22796
I don't suggest that the current road be removed, just returned to a single carriageway with wide paths and trees. Plenty of places to cross too. The current road is almost like a wall in effect. The old road I refer to (not the even older layout the map refers too) pretty much followed the path of the current 414, but it was single lane and had more properties along its course. Post bypass, think of it like Thunderidge. They are slowly drawing the road back in, so that the village feel comes back. You can still have the road without it dividing the community. The percentages I refer to are simply a guess, based on the people I know. I only know one person who is against it. And they think the answer is that we all get on trains and bikes. Are you pro or anti a bypass?
quote:
Originally posted by Katequote:I don’t see how building a bypass would stop the town being split in two as we would still need the road for local traffic. It’s hard to see how the existing road could be returned to single-lanes, and even if it was, that would make little difference to the idea of a 'split'. It's not my experience 95% of people in Hertford are supportive of a bypass – I'd suggest it’s more like 50-50 amongst those that have a firm view, and many (like me) torn on the issue.
Originally posted by Dude
I'm actually suprised how few people here on the forum have a strong view about a bypass, particularly as there are quite a few moans about the traffic. Of the people I know in Hertford, I would say approx 95% want a bypass. Maybe the majority of forum members don't remember how great Hertford town centre was before it was cut in two by the A414 dual carrageway.
Reply ID 22797
quote:I can't quite remember when they built the dual carrageway. abbut 1979-80 rings a bell. same time they built Bircherley Green. I remember it, and I'm 36 now if that helps! [:)]
Originally posted by Deveraux
Gosh Never realised that - thanks for sharing the photos! How old are they?
Reply ID 22801
quote:Steve will know for certain but I have 1964 in my head. Certainly it was in the '60s. You must be thinking of another dual carriageway - perhaps the Hertingfordbury bypass - although that was probably only about 10 years ago.
Originally posted by Dudequote:I can't quite remember when they built the dual carrageway. abbut 1979-80 rings a bell. same time they built Bircherley Green. I remember it, and I'm 36 now if that helps! [:)]
Originally posted by Deveraux
Gosh Never realised that - thanks for sharing the photos! How old are they?
Reply ID 22802
The A414 was widened through parts of Hertford in the 1980s I remember that and I am only 30 - however Gascoyne Way has always been there as far as I can remeber.
Reply ID 22812
Oh yes. There was something done when Waters garage was built. There used to be a roundabout there and they blocked off St. Andrews Street to cut off the through traffic and send it around the outside - they blocked a rat run!!!!
Reply ID 22835
quote:FWIW and slightly off-topic, I also have an aerial photo of the town centre from the 1920s, before the slum clearance on Bircherley Green and the building of the original bus station. Anyone interested?
Originally posted by codek2
would a bypass necessarily mean the town centre would be rejoined? presumably you'd still need a road where the current 414 is? how did it work before? are there any old maps?
Reply ID 22838
quote:Interested in anything to do with Hertford's past. Pride in our past, faith in our future and all that.
Originally posted by Stevequote:FWIW and slightly off-topic, I also have an aerial photo of the town centre from the 1920s, before the slum clearance on Bircherley Green and the building of the original bus station. Anyone interested?
Originally posted by codek2
would a bypass necessarily mean the town centre would be rejoined? presumably you'd still need a road where the current 414 is? how did it work before? are there any old maps?
Reply ID 22839
quote:Yes please.
FWIW and slightly off-topic, I also have an aerial photo of the town centre from the 1920s, before the slum clearance on Bircherley Green and the building of the original bus station. Anyone interested?
Reply ID 22840
quote:I would like to see it please, but what does FWIW mean? I am confused with this youth text jargon.
Originally posted by Stevequote:FWIW and slightly off-topic, I also have an aerial photo of the town centre from the 1920s, before the slum clearance on Bircherley Green and the building of the original bus station. Anyone interested?
Originally posted by codek2
would a bypass necessarily mean the town centre would be rejoined? presumably you'd still need a road where the current 414 is? how did it work before? are there any old maps?
Reply ID 22842
Here you go... http://www.hertford.net/pictures/air/view.asp?pic=aerial6037
Reply ID 22843
quote:Thats a fantastic picture. The best bit is the lack of the A414! Love the old Bluecoats buildings that are no more!
Originally posted by Steve
Here you go... http://www.hertford.net/pictures/air/view.asp?pic=aerial6037
Reply ID 22852
quote:Looks like the White Horse had quite a beer garden before the A414 came along. What happened to the people owning the houses along the route? Presumably they were forced out but suitably compensated?
Originally posted by Steve
Here you go... http://www.hertford.net/pictures/air/view.asp?pic=aerial6037
Reply ID 22853
quote:Have to agree great pic and no A414. I went to visit a friend in London Wednesday evening. He lives basically at the bottom of the M11 in London. Over half my journey time was spent just getting out of Hertford. Our wonderful town is now known in the South of England as the place to avoid. Its time we did something about this. A bypass will happen eventually so lets have it now while those of us on here are alive to enjoy the benefits.
Thats a fantastic picture. The best bit is the lack of the A414! Love the old Bluecoats buildings that are no more!
Reply ID 22872
quote:It is? By whom?
Originally posted by Reg Varny
Our wonderful town is now known in the South of England as the place to avoid.
Reply ID 22879
quote:I once attended in the early 90's the osteopath who lived in what is now the Old Vicrage Tea Rooms. He related that he was compensated for the land he lost, but only at agricultural rates. He was not happy. I have no way of knowing if that was the case, but i was inclined to believe him.
Originally posted by Jobyquote:Looks like the White Horse had quite a beer garden before the A414 came along. What happened to the people owning the houses along the route? Presumably they were forced out but suitably compensated?
Originally posted by Steve
Here you go... http://www.hertford.net/pictures/air/view.asp?pic=aerial6037
Reply ID 22927
wow that is a great pic, thanks for posting it!
Reply ID 22952
The thing that struck me was how many graves must have been dug up in All Saints churchyard to put the A414 through. A bit surprised they got away with that!
Reply ID 23076
I'd prefer to see a tunnel built but the cost would be astronomical, especially when you consider that council tax and utility bills are already increasing far in excess of wages. However, if a bypass were built would some of the land taken up by the present A414 be reclaimed for housing or maybe some new shops?
Reply ID 23077
I say improve what we have got as another by pass will kill our countryside we have around Hertford as it will effect an awful lot of it for miles. Not only visually but the noise and environmental pollution, and once that has gone we will never get it back!
Reply ID 23081
quote:First of all we don't actually have a bypass at the moment. What we do have is a major road cutting it's way right through the middle of our town. Has the road built to bypass Letty Green and Birch Green killed the countryside? I think not. It has actually opened up the countyside to thousands of motorists who travel along it every day. The view coming along it into Hertford is wonderful. It is such a shame that you then get stuck in a jam as you enter Hertford. This is where the real pollution begins where you and I, our families and our children live.
Originally posted by Sister
I say improve what we have got as another by pass will kill our countryside we have around Hertford as it will effect an awful lot of it for miles. Not only visually but the noise and environmental pollution, and once that has gone we will never get it back!
Reply ID 23120
quote:Rumour has it that two other Breweries in Hertford just happened to be in the way and were knocked down, by the building of the A414. Anybody got any solid information on that? Paul
Originally posted by Jobyquote:Looks like the White Horse had quite a beer garden before the A414 came along. What happened to the people owning the houses along the route? Presumably they were forced out but suitably compensated?
Originally posted by Steve
Here you go... http://www.hertford.net/pictures/air/view.asp?pic=aerial6037
Reply ID 23123
quote:Not to my knowledge. None of the older Hertford Breweries were on the route.
Originally posted by Paul
Rumour has it that two other Breweries in Hertford just happened to be in the way and were knocked down, by the building of the A414. Anybody got any solid information on that? Paul
Reply ID 23124
There was a brewery at the end of West Street near the junction with Castle Street. I believe it would have been in the path of the A414 but I think it may have been demolished before the A414 was built.
Reply ID 23134
quote:Hope this isn't off topic - whilst searching for old breweries I found out that Mc Mullens is up for sale http://www.moodyauctions.com/250806-tender-mcmullen/details.html Paul
Originally posted by Ewoowar
There was a brewery at the end of West Street near the junction with Castle Street. I believe it would have been in the path of the A414 but I think it may have been demolished before the A414 was built.
Reply ID 23138
I don't think that McMullens is up for sale - just selling of some of its assets. (And I don't think McMullens pulled strings to have two breweries demolished by putting the relief road through their premises either!) Veering back towards the topic, might Hertford get a bypass if the Stansted expansion went through and there was a need to improve traffic flow in the area?
Reply ID 23140
quote:Hmm, a post about a brewery sale in a thread about the bypass. Off-topic? You decide. [:p]
Originally posted by Paul
Hope this isn't off topic - whilst searching for old breweries I found out that Mc Mullens is up for sale
Reply ID 23141
So REG we will destroy more of the country side, instead on improving what we have. You have obviousley not taken a walk on the public foot path between hertford and bayford,through the woods and fields where the original plans to build this road where! I would highly recommend it and then you may appreciate what I mean. Why do people alway look for new options instead of recycling and developing what we already have! The A414 by pass is really only a small streach of road, but a by pass of Hertford would be Huge and effecct many people in remote areas like bayford, Hertford heath, Mangrove road, and the outskirts of the town. The people in the centre have accepted the main road thats why they live there and the poein the outskirts like the peace, thats why we live here!
Reply ID 23144
About 12 years ago a major section of the A414 was completed to the West of Hertford. Before this drivers would hurtle along The Old Coach Road past Cole Green and Letty Green. Opening the new section of the A414 massively reduced the traffic passing these villages, making them safer places and probably more attractive to live in, while at the same time making the A414 a more viable East-West route and sending more traffic through Hertford. The recent Wadesmill bypass has also had a positive effect on the villages impacted by the A10. So why is it that villages can get the benefits of a bypass and not the county town?
Reply ID 23146
Well there lies the rub. Build better roads and the car stays the most viable mode of transport. Putting up with the chaos of heavy traffic means other methods start to look more attractive however they might have been sabotaged to stimulate manufacturing in the '60s. We all hate traffic, whether from within a vehicle or as it passes our homes. As for bypassing villages, verses towns, it may be to do with lobbying power. It is not always the majority that has the loudest voice.
Reply ID 23150
quote:Where do you get the idea that the people in the "centre" have accepted the main road? Just because it there, doesn't mean its either accepted or unaccepted. Besides, its a very different road, volume wise, to the one many people "accepted" when they moved here. Its like saying, build a bypass, and those on the outskirts have now "accepted" it. If not, they would have left. Also, you mention that there would be an increase in pollution, when it is widely accepted that moving traffic causes far less pollution than idle traffic. Can I ask what your idea would be to "improve" what we already have? How would you try to solve the A414 issue?
Originally posted by Sister
So REG we will destroy more of the country side, instead on improving what we have. You have obviousley not taken a walk on the public foot path between hertford and bayford,through the woods and fields where the original plans to build this road where! I would highly recommend it and then you may appreciate what I mean. Why do people alway look for new options instead of recycling and developing what we already have! The A414 by pass is really only a small streach of road, but a by pass of Hertford would be Huge and effecct many people in remote areas like bayford, Hertford heath, Mangrove road, and the outskirts of the town. The people in the centre have accepted the main road thats why they live there and the poein the outskirts like the peace, thats why we live here!
Reply ID 23160
the opposition to a bypass through the likes of bayford etc would be immense, i just dont see it happening. Presumably this is why ideas as crazy as the tunnel have been suggested! Even if it did happen, it'd be 10-20 years down the line, could you imagine how long it would take to consult and even agree a provisional route!
Reply ID 23161
just protecting OUR country side and wildlife as I do quite like it!
Reply ID 23162
quote:I like it too! [:)] But how do we sort the traffic nightmare?
Originally posted by Sister
just protecting OUR country side and wildlife as I do quite like it!
Reply ID 23165
Why dont we knock down a few more houses and make the 414 through Hertford an 8 lane carriage way? flippant
Reply ID 23166
Build another bypass you just move the hold up somewhere else.
Reply ID 23167
quote:I'm not sure I agree. The hold-ups are caused by bottlenecks such as the roundabouts and junctions. Reduce the number of these and the traffic moves more freely. As far as I can see, the best route for a new bypass would be from the roundabout at the bottom of Thieves Lane to the roundabout at the top of London Road. This would be about 3 miles of dual-carriageway looping around the south of the town, across Horns Mill Road, Brickendon Lane and Mangrove Road.
Originally posted by carlos fandango
Build another bypass you just move the hold up somewhere else.
Reply ID 23170
Thus moving the hold up to the roundabout at Rush Green (i think). It can already be chaos there.
Reply ID 23171
Newbury didn't do a bad job of a by-pass in the 90's although the opposition was massive. It has made the place road-liveable. I seem to remember a small road called the London Orbital Route being given the go-ahead some time ago, although someone in Government quietly slipped in a car park along the way. [;)]
Reply ID 23172
quote:It would take the traffic out of the town centre though. The fact is that the current road was never designed to handle the volume of traffic that uses it. A new road could factor this in as well as providing a stretch of road with only two junctions instead of the existing six.
Originally posted by carlos fandango
Thus moving the hold up to the roundabout at Rush Green (i think). It can already be chaos there.
Reply ID 23173
quote:The traffic already uses that roundabout. The bypass would just get it there without sending it through Hertford first.
Originally posted by carlos fandango
Thus moving the hold up to the roundabout at Rush Green (i think). It can already be chaos there.
Reply ID 23176
In addition to the many roundabouts there are also many side turnings on the A414 as it goes through Hertford. To make matters worse it also goes down to single lanes either side of the central reservation at some points.
Reply ID 23181
quote:Steve Quality pic - got any others? Chris
Originally posted by Steve
Here you go... http://www.hertford.net/pictures/air/view.asp?pic=aerial6037
Reply ID 23189
The key to making it work would be to link the bypass from/to the A10 roundabout at Anwell, not Rush Green. Then the A414 can remain uninterupted, rather than vanish for one stretch of the A10.
Reply ID 23194
quote:True, but that would increase the cost significantly. It's worth considering though.
Originally posted by Dude
The key to making it work would be to link the bypass from/to the A10 roundabout at Anwell, not Rush Green. Then the A414 can remain uninterupted, rather than vanish for one stretch of the A10.
Reply ID 23197
quote:It wasn't my idea. It was one of the proposals being muted back in 1988/89. The plan was for the road to run between Haileybury and Hertford Heath (it called for some of the fringe house on the village to be knocked down) before coming in and joining the current A414 at the Essendon turn off roundabout.
Originally posted by Stevequote:True, but that would increase the cost significantly. It's worth considering though.
Originally posted by Dude
The key to making it work would be to link the bypass from/to the A10 roundabout at Anwell, not Rush Green. Then the A414 can remain uninterupted, rather than vanish for one stretch of the A10.
Reply ID 23207
There is a dual carraige way all the way through Hertford! Why build yet another dual carraige way else where to do the same job! Why can't the local authorities look at what is causing the hold ups eg. traffic lights, round abouts. and develop what we already have. It will work out far cheaper and less costly for the valuable green space which is already rapidly getting smaller.
Reply ID 23209
So how would you suggest they eliminate the traffic build up at all the roundabouts from Hertingfordbury to Bluecoats then?? They have tried traffic lights at great expense and that does not work. Should they get rid of the roundabouts and have slip roads? that would just cause build up on them. Everyway that you look at it the only way to keep the 414 flowing through Hertford other than restricting it, is to add lanes to it, which is not viable................... Like it or not, the only solution is a bypass.
Reply ID 23213
Hertford used to be a town that everybody knew as they passed through, busy, noisy, dirty and bustling with life. It was once accepted that town centers were where you'd find traffic. Then it became just an annoying bottleneck on the A414 with the building of Gascoine Way, but hey, we got pleasant cobbled pedestrian zones to view the closed shops from in comfortable French cafe style. Soon it will be a roadsign that people pass and note only as a marker of distance to their own interchange. I'm driver too and I appreciate being able to get from A to B with efficiency, but I also am aware of what we lose as the proportion of land to allocated to drive on goes up and up and the places we see and visit whilst doing so goes down.
Reply ID 23215
quote:Of course there is a dual carriageway. But its a town bypass that is required. The local authorities can look at the problem and they will come up with the conclusion that we already know. That being, the current road system through Hertford is not up to the job, for current and future usage levels. Even the Labour government accepts that car usage will increase, dispite all the promises for improved public transport. Therefore, the A414 is only going to get worse. I already know of several manufacturing and service industries in Hertford who are considering re-locating because of the traffic problems. That could mean a lot of local jobs go. All the while, the "through" traffic will continue to clog the town up. Can you tell us what you think could be done to the existing road that would enable it to deal with the volume of traffic?
Originally posted by Sister
There is a dual carraige way all the way through Hertford! Why build yet another dual carraige way else where to do the same job! Why can't the local authorities look at what is causing the hold ups eg. traffic lights, round abouts. and develop what we already have. It will work out far cheaper and less costly for the valuable green space which is already rapidly getting smaller.
Reply ID 23219
Sky roads, supported by sky hooks or Madame Popoff based at the Hertingfordbury Roundabout "Rentaghosting" all the cars to the A10.
Reply ID 23221
quote:I like the teleportation idea. Cheap, green, and it would not ruin the sky for all those people who like walks!
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
Sky roads, supported by sky hooks or Madame Popoff based at the Hertingfordbury Roundabout "Rentaghosting" all the cars to the A10.
Reply ID 23230
I see your point now.
Reply ID 23231
quote:Actually it isn't dual carriageway all the way through - it is single carriageway under the railway bridge and also only a single lane for the A414 after that (if you are going Harlow bound) Also have a look at the new A10 from Ware to Puckeridge - the impact on the countryside is very small - the effect on the villages is enormous.
Originally posted by Sister
There is a dual carraige way all the way through Hertford!
Reply ID 23232
quote:Not sure I know where you mean. Are you sure you're not confusing this with the B1502 Stansted Road?
Originally posted by jez_p
...only a single lane for the A414 after that (if you are going Harlow bound)
Reply ID 23238
Travelling East from the Hertingfordbury roundabout there are junctions with: 1) The old Hertingfordbury Road. 2) Valeside 3) Campfield Road 4) Sele Road 5) The entry and exit for the slip road before Cross Lane. 6) Cross Lane. 7) The entry and exit for the slip road for the houses just after Cross Lane. 8) Parliament Square. 9) The entry and exit for the multi-storey car park. 10) Fore Street. That's 13 entry and exit points, 4 roundabouts, 4 sets of traffic lights, 3 toucan crossings and a reduction to a single lane between two junctions...........and you haven't even left Hertford yet.
Reply ID 23303
Nice sequencing! If one wanted a plan to reduce car use by making it more difficult, Ewoowar's list would be perfect and very "green". Unfortunately it's just an accidental product of a bypass that doesn't bypass, but goes straight through the middle! It always was a folly, even when built because interchanges (the things that make junctions run smoothly) take up vast amounts of space and there just isn't room, unless you knock down half the town. Spot on Ewoowar. It's the juctions that back up traffic and that was the bit that was short sighted in it's planning from the start.
Reply ID 23317
quote:But is it not interesting that is does not reduce car use, otherwise we would not be having this debate. Part of the problem is that everyone wants to drive everywhere and regards it as a right. Fact is there is a finite amount of space and either something has to give or you accept that the situation is as it is and live with it. New roads may temprarily relieve congestion but they soon generate new traffic flows and you get back to square one.
Originally posted by shunt
Nice sequencing! If one wanted a plan to reduce car use by making it more difficult, Ewoowar's list would be perfect and very "green".
Reply ID 23321
quote:Unless you have a tandem scheme that increases the roads, while improving the public transport. At the moment we are getting neither and that is causing the problem.
Originally posted by Andrewquote:But is it not interesting that is does not reduce car use, otherwise we would not be having this debate. Part of the problem is that everyone wants to drive everywhere and regards it as a right. Fact is there is a finite amount of space and either something has to give or you accept that the situation is as it is and live with it. New roads may temprarily relieve congestion but they soon generate new traffic flows and you get back to square one.
Originally posted by shunt
Nice sequencing! If one wanted a plan to reduce car use by making it more difficult, Ewoowar's list would be perfect and very "green".
Reply ID 23326
I have to agree - no matter how much you try and price people off the roads, they will carry on using their cars unless a suitable alternative exists. I am supposed to start work at 6am in the city, so I will have to drive (first train arrives Kings Cross at 6am) and pay the £8 charge to come home at 2pm. I suppose I could get a train home but that would mean leaving my car behind. Or I could wait until after 6:30pm to go home but that would just make it an extremely long day.
Reply ID 23327
quote:I disagree that new roads generate more traffic. New roads change the dynamic of traffic flows - e.g. if the bottleneck of Hertford is bypassed then more people may use the A414 as an alternative to the M25 But I very much doubt that more people will go out and buy cars just because a new road is built.
Originally posted by Andrew
But is it not interesting that is does not reduce car use, otherwise we would not be having this debate. Part of the problem is that everyone wants to drive everywhere and regards it as a right. Fact is there is a finite amount of space and either something has to give or you accept that the situation is as it is and live with it. New roads may temprarily relieve congestion but they soon generate new traffic flows and you get back to square one.
Reply ID 23338
It does have an effect on car use though. I rarely go to Tesco's, because it takes so long, but walk to my local store instead. I have bought all my properties with were I can get to on foot in mind. It's not that I'm "green", but more for convenience. Likewise, those who suffer the trains every day, do so because it's easier than driving into London (unless you start at 6am). If the roads were clear they'd all start driving in until they became clogged again.
Reply ID 23372
quote:On the other hand, I changed my entire career to get out of commuting, because public transport was so bad. I now run a business which runs may vans out of Hertford. Public transport has forced me to add vehicles on the road?
Originally posted by shunt
It does have an effect on car use though. I rarely go to Tesco's, because it takes so long, but walk to my local store instead. I have bought all my properties with were I can get to on foot in mind. It's not that I'm "green", but more for convenience. Likewise, those who suffer the trains every day, do so because it's easier than driving into London (unless you start at 6am). If the roads were clear they'd all start driving in until they became clogged again.
Reply ID 23386
So the same point really......you are doing what is easiest and most pleasant and that adds more vehicles to the road. If the roads were not good enough for your vans to be viable, you'd still be commuting.
Reply ID 24135
quote:I'd rather die than use the Hertford East line again. If they pumped another 10 billion into the trains I can't imagine it would come up to scratch.
Originally posted by shunt
So the same point really......you are doing what is easiest and most pleasant and that adds more vehicles to the road. If the roads were not good enough for your vans to be viable, you'd still be commuting.
Reply ID 24284
Need any IT Support Dude??? I've pretty much got out of the rat race of commuting now, as the public transport costs are so high. How can they expect people to use such a bad service yet pay such a high price for it? Because they know that they have no choice and as a result, can totaly take the Michael. In what other sector could a business fail so badly yet still keep such a high customer use?
Reply ID 25868
[/quote] I see your point! [:)] It was a bit sweeping! However, I probably wouldn't be far wrong to suggest that the land used would be 95% farmland. There are no nature reserves and no forests. And the environmental arguement seems to be thinning due to the excessive damage caused by traffic jams. Hertford has to have a bypass, its a matter of when. I say now! [/quote] I may be wrong but i think you will find that the "suggested route" does go very close if not through part of hertford heath (which is a protected area)
Reply ID 26770
Hertford needs a bypass now.Its the through traffic thats making this town a nightmare to live in.Whether its to the south or even the north of the town the enviromental cost of a bypass is much less than the ongoing horendous situation.The A414 itself is being used as a rat run for traffic between the A10 and the A1.What chance do local people have of enjoying this lovely town when a branch of the M25 runs through the middle of it ?
Reply ID 26802
quote:No, the A414 is a main road between the A1 and the A10, cars are using it for what it is meant to be it is not a rat run. Hertford is not a nightmare to live in. A bypass will inevitably mean new journey opportunities which will generate more traffic and more out of town development. The answer is not to accept that traffic growth has to happen but to take measures to reduce it by increases in taxation and road pricing that make the true cost of unnecessary traffic apparent.
Originally posted by MikeyB
Hertford needs a bypass now.Its the through traffic thats making this town a nightmare to live in.Whether its to the south or even the north of the town the enviromental cost of a bypass is much less than the ongoing horendous situation.The A414 itself is being used as a rat run for traffic between the A10 and the A1.What chance do local people have of enjoying this lovely town when a branch of the M25 runs through the middle of it ?
Reply ID 26811
Well said. Whenever money is spent on widening roads, the traffic increases until we have the same or greater congestion than before. I'd prefer the money to be spent on improving public transport to get more cars off the road.
Reply ID 26822
quote:You dont get traffic jams on the new Thundridge/High Cross bypass. I really get fed up with all you car bashers, personally I think £190 for a years car tax and the current fuel costs is more than enough thank you. Vote Jeremy Clarkson for Prime Minister!
Originally posted by ian.ball
Well said. Whenever money is spent on widening roads, the traffic increases until we have the same or greater congestion than before. I'd prefer the money to be spent on improving public transport to get more cars off the road.
Reply ID 26855
quote:Oh dear
Originally posted by Andrewquote:No, the A414 is a main road between the A1 and the A10, cars are using it for what it is meant to be it is not a rat run. Hertford is not a nightmare to live in. A bypass will inevitably mean new journey opportunities which will generate more traffic and more out of town development. The answer is not to accept that traffic growth has to happen but to take measures to reduce it by increases in taxation and road pricing that make the true cost of unnecessary traffic apparent.
Originally posted by MikeyB
Hertford needs a bypass now.Its the through traffic thats making this town a nightmare to live in.Whether its to the south or even the north of the town the enviromental cost of a bypass is much less than the ongoing horendous situation.The A414 itself is being used as a rat run for traffic between the A10 and the A1.What chance do local people have of enjoying this lovely town when a branch of the M25 runs through the middle of it ?
Reply ID 26869
How about concreting over all the train routes and then give them over to cars?
Reply ID 26886
Just what I expected. For the record I'm not anti-car and in fact drive one. It's a shame it's not possible to have a reasoned debate about an integrated transport system with such blinkered responses.
Reply ID 26890
quote:See Lord Beacham, 1966.
Originally posted by gabriel
How about concreting over all the train routes and then give them over to cars?
Reply ID 26893
Sorry that was a bit brief. I'll explain. If I go to Tesco, I take the car. It's too far to walk with shopping bags. If there was still a shuttle line running from North Station to East, I'd take that. Result = one less car on Gascoign Way. Likewise, if going to Hoddesdon, I also take the car because it's easier and door to door. Taxation, pollution worries, fuel prices all have done nothing to persuade us onto public transport. Only congestion and traffic jams force us on to alternatives. Hertford's stations are busy because driving into London is a worse experience. Make it easy, less people will take the train. It also effects housing and the total number and length of journeys. Say you get a job at Stanstead. You might have looked for a home in Bishops Stortford or Dunmow. Now the bypass is open, you might also consider Broxbourne, Cheshunt, Enfield.
Reply ID 26899
Shunt, there used to be a rail line from hertford north to east.
Reply ID 26900
Shunt's comment was "If there was still a shuttle line running from North Station to East" [:)]
Reply ID 26903
There never was a passenger line from Hertford North to Hertford East. There was a link from Hertford East to Hertford Cowbridge but it was only used for non passenger workings. The link went on to the GN line near where Hertford North is now, but when it was there there was no Hertford North station
Reply ID 26904
quote:Quite so, there are other ways to ease traffic congestion than just building more roads. Money is spent on roads that could otherwise be spent on public transport which starves public transport of money so more people have to own cars. I don't beleive charging drivers more for using roads will ever work unless there is a viable alternative and as you say shunt there just isn't. If there were, then more people could choose what transport to use. It would be nice if more of the tax raised really tried to address these problems, but sadly it seems to be just a revenue raiser. As to replacing railways lost as a result of Beeching, sadly I think the cost in terms of money and the environment would be too high.
Originally posted by shunt
Sorry that was a bit brief. I'll explain. If I go to Tesco, I take the car. It's too far to walk with shopping bags. If there was still a shuttle line running from North Station to East, I'd take that. Result = one less car on Gascoign Way. Likewise, if going to Hoddesdon, I also take the car because it's easier and door to door. Taxation, pollution worries, fuel prices all have done nothing to persuade us onto public transport. Only congestion and traffic jams force us on to alternatives. Hertford's stations are busy because driving into London is a worse experience. Make it easy, less people will take the train. It also effects housing and the total number and length of journeys. Say you get a job at Stanstead. You might have looked for a home in Bishops Stortford or Dunmow. Now the bypass is open, you might also consider Broxbourne, Cheshunt, Enfield.
Reply ID 26905
If there are a large number of private transport users then certain responsibilities are needed to balance the oft perceived "right" to drive wherever you want whenever you want. Responsibilities such as asking "is this journey neccesary?". How many people drive to gym to get exercise, drive a quarter of a mile to the Bengeo co-op , think What effect is the polution that my car produces having on everyone etc etc? I am not anti car, though not especially pro car either, but we cannot go on as we are.
Reply ID 26911
I'm petrolhead personified, but I know that unless we get real and use our vehicles less, travel less or find more efficient alternatives and transport goods over shorter distances, the time left for my beloved road toys is limited. Legislation, held off by fear of being at fiscal disadvantage will suddenly become unavoidable. Building roads increases car use, no statistic, study or logic can dispute that. We cannot afford to use our cars more, buy more, or buy new cars so frequently, if we hope to keep any cars at all. Imagine Hertford as it was, without Gascoine Way. How hard would drivers, who now drive through it, try to avoid the journey?
Reply ID 26997
One thing that has been lost a long time ago for a significant number of drivers? The pleasure of driving.....Ok there may be some drivers who, because of particular routes they take or the make of car they own still derive a sense of enjoyment from it, but I'd guess for a lot of us it isn't much fun anymore?
Reply ID 27000
I still enjoy driving but try to plan my trips at times when there is likely to be less traffic on the roads. This is not always possible though and one of the biggest delays can be just getting out of Hertford. On a recent trip to see a friend who lives in outer London over half the journey time was taken up just trying to get out of our town. How many other county towns in England still have major roads running right through them I wonder?
Reply ID 27035
quote:I remember that there was some talk in the 70s about using the disused line along the back of Port Vale as a "Northern Relief Road". This was abandoned and as houses and light industrial units have been built on the Port Hill end you cannot even walk along that route now. I wonder who still owns that land and if there are plans to use it for anything?
Originally posted by Andrew
There never was a passenger line from Hertford North to Hertford East. There was a link from Hertford East to Hertford Cowbridge but it was only used for non passenger workings. The link went on to the GN line near where Hertford North is now, but when it was there there was no Hertford North station
Reply ID 27043
quote:There's a sign up regarding the ownership of the land on the path that runs from the bottom of Byde Street to Molewood Road. Can't remember who it is, but for some strange reason I remember the telephone number has a Leeds area code.
Originally posted by Ray_by_the_Beane
I wonder who still owns that land and if there are plans to use it for anything?
Reply ID 27045
Answering my own question, see http://www.brb.gov.uk/property/property_listings?keyword=hertford It looks as if it's under offer at the moment.
Reply ID 27169
One thing that has been lost a long time ago for a significant number of drivers? The pleasure of driving.....Ok there may be some drivers who, because of particular routes they take or the make of car they own still derive a sense of enjoyment from it, but I'd guess for a lot of us it isn't much fun anymore? ................................ I wonder if driving pleasure would be restored to locals if through traffic ie people who are not living in or visiting hertford, were sent on their way on a new bypass built away from the town? ,(obviously paying a toll towards any enviro group ,but not the government).That might even assist public transport on their mission impossible? Local traffic only,there's a thought.
Reply ID 27189
quote:I think we could have a debate, but the problem is, the anti bypass supporters don't seem to be able to offer up a viable alternative.
Originally posted by ian.ball
Just what I expected. For the record I'm not anti-car and in fact drive one. It's a shame it's not possible to have a reasoned debate about an integrated transport system with such blinkered responses.
Reply ID 27193
How about leaving things as they are? i.e. self-regulating by capacity, not anti-car and not guaranteed to increase usage in the way a by-pass would. We can't afford the luxury of increased road capacity anymore.
Reply ID 27242
quote:I think they do but no one takes them seriously. For example, what about a small shopping bus that runs locally - you call a number and the bus picks you up from your house and deposits you in the centre of town - say outside Baroosh. It would be an "on demand" service funded from the money that would otherwise be used to build the bypass. What about providing good public transport to local areas of work, for example to Hatfield, Welwyn etc? I don't know what the bus service is like at the moment (I walk to work) but I would guess there is no quick and easy way to get to Hatfield, St Albans or Welwyn on the bus? Or what about local taxis that are electrically powered? Then you can at least reduce the amount of exhaust gases in the town. And of course, a much better, more reliable train service that allowed folk to go to events in London and get trains back home on the Hertford East line. Encourage cycling by putting in proper facilities instead of wasting money on pathetic cycle lanes - eg covered, secure bike parking at the stations and in town. Make walking more attractive by making sure pavements are well maintained and run through pleasant areas and are well signposted. There's actually quite a lot that could be done!
Originally posted by Dude I think we could have a debate, but the problem is, the anti bypass supporters don't seem to be able to offer up a viable alternative.
Reply ID 27244
the 724 goes to all the areas you mention very quickly indeed..
Reply ID 27246
quote:Is it well used? If it is then clearly it's a success, but if not, why not?
Originally posted by exiled_in_Reading
the 724 goes to all the areas you mention very quickly indeed..
Reply ID 27247
quote:er - just picking up on this - the Old Railway line through Port Vale has been sold? What implications does that have?
Originally posted by Ray_by_the_Beane
Answering my own question, see http://www.brb.gov.uk/property/property_listings?keyword=hertford It looks as if it's under offer at the moment.
Reply ID 27248
quote:Off-topic
Originally posted by Ted Badger
er - just picking up on this - the Old Railway line through Port Vale has been sold? What implications does that have?
Reply ID 27250
Exiled - the 724 is an hourly service and is frequently late owing to the large distance it covers. Some small villages were recently cut out leading inevitably to complaints from older and less able persons in said villages. This leads of course to that old chestnut commercial viability vs service. On the other hand the trip to Welwyn or Hatfield should be quicker but haven't yet tried this out. A few years ago someone on the Hertford Transport Forum was lambasted by a member for living in the middle of town and owing a car. A while later same person lamented the lack of a quick, regular east west bus service to Lister Hospitial. That, said the other person, is one of the reasons why i need a car in the middle of Hertford. I am all for buses, cyclist routes ,sustainable transport etc etc but from where I'm standing there is little investment in such a plan. Fact - East Herts is mainly rural - even the five major towns are small and classed as market towns - the only real way of getting about and the most favoured means is by car. Unless there is a huge investment is public transport and this means buses owing to efforts of Doctor Beeching and despite the slow train much beloved of Flanders and Swann, then more and more people will take to the car. Bikes are fine but I for one would not want to indulge in a daily joust with the driving habits I see exhibited all around town and printed in this forum. A bypass would take traffic away from Hertford - at least people know Hertford exists. They bypassed Buntingford and in doing so shut down half the town's businesses at a stroke.
Reply ID 27251
quote:I don't think this is a fair comparison. Before the Buntinford Bypass, traffic travelled directly through the town centre. This is not the case in Hertford.
Originally posted by sloopjohnb
A bypass would take traffic away from Hertford - at least people know Hertford exists. They bypassed Buntingford and in doing so shut down half the town's businesses at a stroke.
Reply ID 27252
quote:But that's the whole point, there should be much more investment. One could argue that a transport service shouldn't be commercial as it has so many community benefits not just to the town but also to businesses, environment, health the list is long. If more was invested in local transport instead of roads, more people would use it and so there would be fewer cars on the roads and even the roads would improve. I do admit that the sort of investment we're talking about is massive, but so is the investment needed to build more roads too.
Originally posted by sloopjohnb I am all for buses, cyclist routes ,sustainable transport etc etc but from where I'm standing there is little investment in such a plan. Fact - East Herts is mainly rural - even the five major towns are small and classed as market towns - the only real way of getting about and the most favoured means is by car.
Reply ID 27253
quote:So: I buy a car insure it, pay tax on the insurance, pay ever increasing road tax, put petrol in the afforementioned car, pay tax on that, and you think available funds out the the public purse should all go towards improving the buses?!!! Heres a starter for 10 to relieve congestion that will help a lot of people; scrap the bus lanes, the majority of which are hardly ever used (ergo examples include the M4 and major A roads such as the A3), they are a complete waste of space.
Originally posted by ian.ballquote:But that's the whole point, there should be much more investment. One could argue that a transport service shouldn't be commercial as it has so many community benefits not just to the town but also to businesses, environment, health the list is long. If more was invested in local transport instead of roads, more people would use it and so there would be fewer cars on the roads and even the roads would improve. I do admit that the sort of investment we're talking about is massive, but so is the investment needed to build more roads too.
Originally posted by sloopjohnb I am all for buses, cyclist routes ,sustainable transport etc etc but from where I'm standing there is little investment in such a plan. Fact - East Herts is mainly rural - even the five major towns are small and classed as market towns - the only real way of getting about and the most favoured means is by car.
Reply ID 27254
The local bus service is very poor. When I worked in WGC I could travel door to door in 12-15 minutes if I used my car. When my car was in for repair and I had to travel by bus I had to walk half a mile to a bus stop and catch the hourly bus that travelled all round Hertingfordbury, Cole Green, Birch Green, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc and eventually took well over an hour to drop me off a quarter of a mile from my office in WGC. It takes less time to commute to Docklands.
Reply ID 27256
quote:All about money and how much a motorist pays then? No social or global issues? Phew! That's a relief!
Originally posted by exiled_in_Readingquote:So: I buy a car insure it, pay tax on the insurance, pay ever increasing road tax, put petrol in the afforementioned car, pay tax on that, and you think available funds out the the public purse should all go towards improving the buses?!!! Heres a starter for 10 to relieve congestion that will help a lot of people; scrap the bus lanes, the majority of which are hardly ever used (ergo examples include the M4 and major A roads such as the A3), they are a complete waste of space.
Originally posted by ian.ballquote:But that's the whole point, there should be much more investment. One could argue that a transport service shouldn't be commercial as it has so many community benefits not just to the town but also to businesses, environment, health the list is long. If more was invested in local transport instead of roads, more people would use it and so there would be fewer cars on the roads and even the roads would improve. I do admit that the sort of investment we're talking about is massive, but so is the investment needed to build more roads too.
Originally posted by sloopjohnb I am all for buses, cyclist routes ,sustainable transport etc etc but from where I'm standing there is little investment in such a plan. Fact - East Herts is mainly rural - even the five major towns are small and classed as market towns - the only real way of getting about and the most favoured means is by car.
Reply ID 27261
quote:The 724 takes 40 minutes to go from Hertford to the QE2 (when it is running well), two hours to get to Watford and 3 to get to Heathrow. How is that quick??? Bus services can be improved as Ken L has shown in London. Roads will however need to come to a standstill before we have the collective will to do something about the situation.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by exiled_in_Reading the 724 goes to all the areas you mention very quickly indeed.. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is it well used? If it is then clearly it's a success, but if not, why not?
Reply ID 27262
quote:Quite so - Buntingford 20 yrs ago was akin to having the Gascoyne Way traffic running through Fore St. I was there. Buntingford has adapted quite nicely anyhow - most shops seem occupied and they now have the opportunity to close the High St for street fairs etc. - its a much better place to live as a result.
Originally posted by Stevequote:I don't think this is a fair comparison. Before the Buntinford Bypass, traffic travelled directly through the town centre. This is not the case in Hertford.
Originally posted by sloopjohnb
A bypass would take traffic away from Hertford - at least people know Hertford exists. They bypassed Buntingford and in doing so shut down half the town's businesses at a stroke.
Reply ID 27267
quote:Gascoyne Way is a relief road and actually cuts the town in two. Fair enough, it has not cut the commercial side in two and as the retail town centre has been maintained whole. However more and more traffic uses the Fore Street route through to South Street and beyond to avoid Gascoyne Way so in a way traffic does flow through the town and Highways own survey showed that the majority of these people had no business in Hertford. I had one of the businesses that suffered from the bypass in Buntingford. Customers who I hadn't seen for weeks said 'sorry, but I stay on the bypass as there is now nowhere to park near your shop.' This once came from a man who bought a bottle of champgane 3/4 times a week. One of the other major casualties was the video shop. A by product of retail symbiosis was that people would get a video, their fish and chip/chinese and then bottle of plonk. Not necessarily in that order. Despite our constant requests no one ever brought in a vegetable samosa or crispy pancake from the takeaways before buying their booze. On the other hand I doubt if they offered a swig of lambrusco to the Bengal & Peking Steak House either. Buntingford then as now is a prime example of a small market town where people rely on the car as public transport only runs alternate Tuesdays when the moon is full. It is surrounded by smaller settlememts where the car is king. These people are attracted in to the bigger which adds to the traffic congestion. I am currently applying for a large community grant to purchase a fleet of green Tuk-tuks and ferry shoppers to and from the railways stations and bus stations all around town free of charge.[;)][}:)]
I don't think this is a fair comparison. Before the Buntinford Bypass, traffic travelled directly through the town centre. This is not the case in Hertford.
Reply ID 27273
As mentioned the "cost" of owning /running a car should be considered as a little more payment towards public transport taxes than riding a bike, however if it wasn't for the THROUGH traffic (people who don't live / work in Hertford ) we wouldn't need a bypass.....Unfortunately Hertford isn't in this parallel universe.
Reply ID 27276
quote:Sorry, I don't get your meaning. Would you consider re-phrasing your point?
Originally posted by MikeyB
As mentioned the "cost" of owning /running a car should be considered as a little more payment towards public transport taxes than riding a bike, however if it wasn't for the THROUGH traffic (people who don't live / work in Hertford ) we wouldn't need a bypass.....Unfortunately Hertford isn't in this parallel universe.
Reply ID 27280
When you pay your road tax do you think, oh excellent this isn’t actually going to go towards maintaining the roads its going to go towards maintaining a bus no one uses? A few key points: Buses do not represent green transport. As far as I am concerned they represent communism. When first introduced the 'A-to-B' ethos suited most people's working patterns. Chances were you lived in a terraced house within a massive network of streets of people who all did the same job - in the mill, shipyard, factory and so on. Because everyone lived in the same place, worked in the same place, went everywhere at the same time and shopped at their local corner shop, they served a useful purpose. Perhaps a few people on this thread should “Tickets, Please” by D.H. Lawrence - sums up this kind of commute perfectly. People now shop, work, and commute all over the place. Buses are outdated, cost far too much to run and should really be put out of as much of their misery as is practical. Cut down on non-peak services, run school, disabled and pensioner specials, but to be honest I really do despair when I find myself looking at an empty bus lane from a traffic jam, and then one might go past with three people on it. People buy a car and pay to run it are not going to get the bus. It is quite simple. Think about this: buses are MOT'd on a test rig with cats in place for the emissions test, then the cats are removed -why? Because they sap too much power if they're in place during everyday use. Secondly, they do about 9mpg and produce approximately ten times the emissions of an average car. So in order for them to be as efficient as a car, they would have to have a minimum of what - 30ish people on board at all times to break even, and more like 50 to make any real environmental difference - the single-deckers can't do this at all. There are many depots that can't actually house all their buses at any one time, due to the increase in bus numbers over the years. When you see a bus with 'sorry - not in service' on its board, it's driving round and round and round its route until another one gets sent out and it can take its place. That's a 9mpg, carcinogenic behemoth, driving in a Soviet-style VIP lane, with one, maybe two people in it. Excellent. Collective transport, comrade? No thanks...
Reply ID 27283
quote:Ah, this old chestnut. Sorry, but the best way to consider those costs are just a tax take - if they didn't come from motoring they'd come from elsewhere and as the vast majority of people now own at least one car it's pretty fair. Actually, once you consider all the costs of motoring like road wear, pollution damage to buildings, emergency services costs, costs on health and so forth you are subsidised by the non driving taxpayer.
Originally posted by exiled_in_Reading So: I buy a car insure it, pay tax on the insurance, pay ever increasing road tax, put petrol in the afforementioned car, pay tax on that, and you think available funds out the the public purse should all go towards improving the buses?!!! Heres a starter for 10 to relieve congestion that will help a lot of people; scrap the bus lanes, the majority of which are hardly ever used (ergo examples include the M4 and major A roads such as the A3), they are a complete waste of space.
Reply ID 27284
quote:Rubbish. Sheer economics renders them pointless. A 40 seater (Dennis or volvo) is about £130K with vat. If they were run like true businesses there wouldn't be nearly as many of them and the remaining ones would be a lot nicer to travel on. Although I have used the 724 on a few occassions and it was adequate as I was not under any time constraint or pressure to get to work; the problem with buses are many and will never, ever get people out of the cars they have paid for, maintained and run: 1) they dont go from where you want to leave 2) they dont take you to where you want to go 3) they do not leave and arrive when you need to or when they claim to 4) they are not direct 5) they cost a lot 6) they usually require the use of multiple modes of public transport to complete the journey 7) there is usually no convenient interface between modes of transport 8) they are not suitable for transport of luggage beyond hand luggage 9) they are not suitable for travelling with kids, family or other large dependent groups i.e. school children 10) they are unflexible 11) you have no guarantee that you will not be sitting in someone elses sick, piss and ****e. A single diesel engined bus emits as much PM10 particulate pollution as 128 petrol engined small cars and as much NOx as 39 cars. How many buses, even the big bendy ones take 129 drivers off the road? Buses pulling away from a bus stop also emit the two most carcingenic chemicals known to science. Smallish diesel engined cars and petrol engines don't have these problems. (If you want to check the stats, please feel free to do a few hours research at NETCEN aka the National Environment Technology Centre)
Originally posted by ian.ballquote:Ah, this old chestnut. Sorry, but the best way to consider those costs are just a tax take - if they didn't come from motoring they'd come from elsewhere and as the vast majority of people now own at least one car it's pretty fair. Actually, once you consider all the costs of motoring like road wear, pollution damage to buildings, emergency services costs, costs on health and so forth you are subsidised by the non driving taxpayer.
Originally posted by exiled_in_Reading So: I buy a car insure it, pay tax on the insurance, pay ever increasing road tax, put petrol in the afforementioned car, pay tax on that, and you think available funds out the the public purse should all go towards improving the buses?!!! Heres a starter for 10 to relieve congestion that will help a lot of people; scrap the bus lanes, the majority of which are hardly ever used (ergo examples include the M4 and major A roads such as the A3), they are a complete waste of space.
Reply ID 27285
Further off-topic posts will be removed
Reply ID 27286
quote:No and opinion anyway, not fact. Look at London and almost any other major city and buses are widely used. I used to commute by bus in London and often couldn't find a seat. I'm sure if bus services were introduced to Hertford that were reliable, quick and matched train times to and from Hertford North and Hertford East they would thrive. I travel to Hertford North on occasion and have never seen any buses waiting for trains. Do they?
Originally posted by exiled_in_Reading Buses do not represent green transport. As far as I am concerned they represent communism... Buses are outdated, cost far too much to run and should really be put out of as much of their misery as is practical.
quote:Ah, now we get to the crux of the matter, you feel cheated by people in bus lanes - they pay less than YOU and get a better deal. There's a simple answer, use the bus or train. If decent services were introduced to Hertford I'm convinced lot of people would. I can't think of many bus lanes in Hertford - Fore Street is the only one that comes to mind but are there others?
I really do despair when I find myself looking at an empty bus lane from a traffic jam, and then one might go past with three people on it. People buy a car and pay to run it are not going to get the bus. It is quite simple.
quote:Average mileage is meaningless in town - you'll be lucky to get 20mpg out of your car in the Hertford traffic jams. BTW the average mpg of a train is 88 so much more efficient than the vast majority of cars - I note you didn't quote that. You're making the typical mistake of assuming it's all or nothing. If everyone cut car use by 20% that would be a massive reduction in carbon load and is relatively easy to achieve by just walking and using bikes. If you could add in public transport to this and it's an easy target. My daughter walks to Ware station and catches the train to Hertford East to go shopping with her mates, much greener than driving I'm sure you'll agree. I will often cycle along the towpath into Hertford and it's not only greener but also *quicker* believe it or not (I found it hard to credit when I first did it!) There are other ways to cut down your carbon footprint of course. Is your car your only blind spot or do you just not care?
Secondly, they do about 9mpg and produce approximately ten times the emissions of an average car. So in order for them to be as efficient as a car, they would have to have a minimum of what - 30ish people on board at all times to break even, and more like 50 to make any real environmental difference - the single-deckers can't do this at all.
Reply ID 27292
quote:And it costs in the region of 2/3 quid for a return for a 4 minute journey if memory serves. Madness. The Railways, in general I think, are crap because they are internodal and are now far too expensive. Too many people fare dodging and too many chavs and yobs, especially on the Hertford East line, where muggings are a frequent occurance. Trains make more sense than buses, in that they can go pretty much as the crow flies, but this is of no help for local travel. Trains are good for long distance travel and I semi regularly use them for that purpose. Yes lets look at London. If you have worked down in the smoke I presume you will have seen what happens when the bus lane hours ended, particularly in places such as Hammersmith. Thats right - the traffic starts flowing again. The 724 stops right outside Hertford North fairly frequently actually and the bus station in Hertford is a stones throw to Hertford east. Thank christ the bus isnt given more kudos in Hertford else the traffic problem would become *worse*.
Originally posted by ian.ballquote:No and opinion anyway, not fact. Look at London and almost any other major city and buses are widely used. I used to commute by bus in London and often couldn't find a seat. I'm sure if bus services were introduced to Hertford that were reliable, quick and matched train times to and from Hertford North and Hertford East they would thrive. I travel to Hertford North on occasion and have never seen any buses waiting for trains. Do they?
Originally posted by exiled_in_Reading Buses do not represent green transport. As far as I am concerned they represent communism... Buses are outdated, cost far too much to run and should really be put out of as much of their misery as is practical.quote:Ah, now we get to the crux of the matter, you feel cheated by people in bus lanes - they pay less than YOU and get a better deal. There's a simple answer, use the bus or train. If decent services were introduced to Hertford I'm convinced lot of people would. I can't think of many bus lanes in Hertford - Fore Street is the only one that comes to mind but are there others?
I really do despair when I find myself looking at an empty bus lane from a traffic jam, and then one might go past with three people on it. People buy a car and pay to run it are not going to get the bus. It is quite simple.quote:Average mileage is meaningless in town - you'll be lucky to get 20mpg out of your car in the Hertford traffic jams. BTW the average mpg of a train is 88 so much more efficient than the vast majority of cars - I note you didn't quote that. You're making the typical mistake of assuming it's all or nothing. If everyone cut car use by 20% that would be a massive reduction in carbon load and is relatively easy to achieve by just walking and using bikes. If you could add in public transport to this and it's an easy target. My daughter walks to Ware station and catches the train to Hertford East to go shopping with her mates, much greener than driving I'm sure you'll agree. I will often cycle along the towpath into Hertford and it's not only greener but also *quicker* believe it or not (I found it hard to credit when I first did it!) There are other ways to cut down your carbon footprint of course. Is your car your only blind spot or do you just not care?
Secondly, they do about 9mpg and produce approximately ten times the emissions of an average car. So in order for them to be as efficient as a car, they would have to have a minimum of what - 30ish people on board at all times to break even, and more like 50 to make any real environmental difference - the single-deckers can't do this at all.
Reply ID 27295
The O/P wanted a discussion about a bypass for Hertford. Unfortunately the thread has been hijacked by those that want to pursue other agendas. Therefore - topic locked.
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